2012 Bathurst 12 Hour - 24-26 February

[D.R.T.]

Is it CAMS dictating the 130% qualifying rule?

[peckstar]

isnt it part of the rules that the 12 hour race operates under (same with the qualifying time)

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Is it CAMS dictating the 130% qualifying rule?

Pretty sure it's a CAMS rule yes, whether it originates with the FIA though?

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Is it CAMS dictating the 130% qualifying rule?

Yes, but IMHO it's not a stupid rule, speed differentials in Prodsports are already interesting, abolishing this would not help.

to be honest, any race where there is a mixture of cars on slicks and then some on road tyres is going to be questionable.

look at it this way, would you want to be at Bathurst with some 2F cars doing 3+ minute laps at the same time some GT3 cars are approaching the 2 minute mark?

for example, this is from Philip Island last November:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFLjk88HBwg

and the MX5 and Boxter are 2B cars (not the slowest 2F class).

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Simon S

Yes, but IMHO it's not a stupid rule, speed differentials in Prodsports are already interesting, abolishing this would not help.

to be honest, any race where there is a mixture of cars on slicks and then some on road tyres is going to be questionable.

look at it this way, would you want to be at Bathurst with some 2F cars doing 3+ minute laps at the same time some GT3 cars are approaching the 2 minute mark?

for example, this is from Philip Island last November:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFLjk88HBwg

and the MX5 and Boxter are 2B cars (not the slowest 2F class).

You are getting a lot right Simon in your posts-- not just this one but in previous posts also.
On lap time issue-- personally I do not like to see R spec tyres mixing with slicks-- they have different performance characteristics and even race lines-- so safer approaching slower cars on slicks.
Re the lap times themselves--if you look at last Easter 1 hour Sportscars/GT race--- the lead cars from ALL classes were easily within 130% of 2.04 likely pole time next year.My view is that catering for the most competent is the standard you want to set throughout the classes.
As an example-- an existing 2F car(2F is slowest of marque sportscar rules)-- Porsche 944 with only about 150HP is well capable of 2.39--- on R specs-- that would improve on slicks( yes--I do know 2F requires R specs)
I personally also think the race would be better off with cars like that in clases rather than a sh box Falcon sedan doddling around in a true endurance test for the drivers !!!!

[alfacors]

FWIW, back in 2007 on Rspecs and tiny brakes, Chris Delfsma's XR8 ran a 2:40 during the 12 Hour. The old Falcon is capable, but it does take a properly prepped team of drivers and crew to get it there.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by alfacors

FWIW, back in 2007 on Rspecs and tiny brakes, Chris Delfsma's XR8 ran a 2:40 during the 12 Hour. The old Falcon is capable, but it does take a properly prepped team of drivers and crew to get it there.

All due respects to competitors-- but all **** and wind and noise!! 944 has 1/3 the HP do already be faster-- and its 30 years older!!

Part of my point was not being so hung up on "new" cars and take a more inclusory approach of competent cars and drivers and the event would get large grids.
Quality will come from becoming a "must do" event .

[Shane001]

All very good points, and I agree the 130% rule is important and should stay. That said often it's not the car that fails to make 130%, it's the driver, especially at somewhere like Bathurst. Even if you've raced there before (regular and professional drivers aside) you tend to improve your laptimes considerably over the course of a weekend.

Remember Bathurst with so many blind corners and such high speeds not only has the 130% rule, but anyone competing in a race event needs to have an NC level minimum licence (ie have competed in a minimum 5 race events).

For the 12 hour it wouldn't be a bad idea to add to this a requirement that drivers have actually raced at Bathurst previously.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Part of my point was not being so hung up on "new" cars and take a more inclusory approach of competent cars and drivers and the event would get large grids.

Silver I thought the idea of the shift from Prodcars to GT3 was to inject an air of glamour.
Not sure that searching the back of used car lots for old high performance cars is where we will get entries that will achieve that purpose no matter what the name is on the badge.
I think the 130% rule is FIA specification for an International event, and it makes very good sense anyway. Perhaps it should apply on the base of the combined driver rule which is used to decide pole. That would probably see it based on something nearer to 2:07
OK let's have the Prodcars on slicks to make them both competitive and to avoid the line conflicts that are promoted by spec R tyres. That would probably, for practical purposes mean that Centrlock wheel conversions or other quick change ideas would have to be allowed. But that is another cost.
By the way, trying to decode Scudd's fastest lap from the lapchart. Anyone that can enlighten me. He certainly looked quick.

[osrg]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

By the way, trying to decode Scudd's fastest lap from the lapchart. Anyone that can enlighten me. He certainly looked quick.

Quali: 2'11.0657
Race: 2'15.1066

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by osrg

Quali: 2'11.0657
Race: 2'15.1066

I see. That puts him in the car just in time for the rain on full tanks. It was a pretty impressive drive.
Thanks

[osrg]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

I see. That puts him in the car just in time for the rain on full tanks. It was a pretty impressive drive.
Thanks

Yes he was...... as i was getting him all connected and belted in it was drizzling on and off. Radio'd back as he was on his first flyer after the stop with "why does it always rain when i'm in the car for my first stint"......

Why indeed. Same thing happened in the Porsche the year before!

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Silver I thought the idea of the shift from Prodcars to GT3 was to inject an air of glamour.
Not sure that searching the back of used car lots for old high performance cars is where we will get entries that will achieve that purpose no matter what the name is on the badge.
.

Not quite what i am saying.The reality is that GT3 was ill conceived and premature decison-- it still is staggering along-- but that has only marginal impact on my point.
The 12 Hour is stand alone-- as such-- it would be best served by doing some original thinking. The Nurburgring 24 Hour,Dubai race--were all originally very open regs events and as such got support.Dubai had to build a race from scratch--without a huge local support base.
In Australia -if every event we try and run pitches itself at the top of the market--it will fail-- sooner or later.The runaway success of Sports/GT racing in Australia is the 1 Hour races-- and the most successfull race is Phillip Island which has open inclusory approach-- there are a lot of other examples--I am trying to stay brief.
Another issue that I see is this-- from Cams to promoters-where is the attempt to contact the people who can help them?
The costs of doing the race have already been mentioned-- people will find the money if the concept gets them excited.Good cars will come when the race looks like a race. Factory race supported teams will not keep coming to a demonstration run . Nurburgring has massive sized entry list-- and it is the variety that helps make the entertainment.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

.The reality is that GT3 was ill conceived and premature decison-- it still is staggering along-- but that has only marginal impact on my point.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Silver 3

.Another issue that I see is this-- from Cams to promoters-where is the attempt to contact the people who can help them?
.

When did they ever try?

Originally Posted by Silver 3

. Factory race supported teams will not keep coming to a demonstration run . Nurburgring has massive sized entry list-- and it is the variety that helps make the entertainment.

The N24 of course is the Highlight of the German VLN Series. There are enough races in that to justify purpose building endurance machinery. Dubai and the other events in that series are building towards that effect on an International basis and that of course is what the B12 is at present part of. The problem is that there are no suitable events for things like the SEAT, some of the Enduro cars like the VW Sirroccos etc which are modified beyond our Series Production standards and the odd prototype like the Flybrid Porsche here even if they were admissible in the B12.
How do you think the Prodsports guys would accept some of those modifications being available? Would that then encourage another Monaro farce?

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

I think the 130% rule is FIA specification for an International event,

nope, and the 12 hour is NOT an international event (still National hence why you only needed a national licence to run and foreign competitors all needed visa's (at $100 a time to CAMS)

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Agreed
The N24 of course is the Highlight of the German VLN Series. There are enough races in that to justify purpose building endurance machinery. Dubai and the other events in that series are building towards that effect on an International basis and that of course is what the B12 is at present part of. The problem is that there are no suitable events for things like the SEAT, some of the Enduro cars like the VW Sirroccos etc which are modified beyond our Series Production standards and the odd prototype like the Flybrid Porsche here even if they were admissible in the B12.
How do you think the Prodsports guys would accept some of those modifications being available? Would that then encourage another Monaro farce?

think you have miss-understood how the N24 is run.

Yes, it incorporates a round of the VLN series, but it's regs are not limited by VLN regs (as in the VLN cars run to their VLN regs, other classes don't).

I think it would be fanciful to think the B12 could ever get like this, apart from you just don't have that many potential entries, Bathurst itself is just not big enough (remember, the N24 has had close to 600 starters before!).

back to what can be done, IMHO the priorities are:

1) cost control - no stupid commercial deals for fuel/tyres/etc. unless they are actually financially beneficial to the entrants, and get the entry fees back down to something sensible, $11K is a joke (to put this on context, Silverstone is not a cheap cct to rent for the weekend, yet the Britcar 24H entry last year was £4,650 [$6,926] - and we though that was pushing it)

2) Dates, pick one that's far enough away from other events that will be running your target market entrants, 1-2 weeks is not enough time to turn cars round, 4 is about the minimum, and that's before you consider peoples personal circumstances with weekend passes etc.

3) spend more time on the middle/back of the grid, the 'glamour' boys will come if they see a strong field that will make them look good.

As I see it, they could do worse than just invite ProSports and GT to run it together, AFAIK, ProdSports are over-subscribed for the Easter weekend at Bathurst, and even if only half of them could do the 12H, add in the GT boys and some others, you would have the makings of a decent grid.

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by Simon S

As I see it, they could do worse than just invite ProSports and GT to run it together, AFAIK, ProdSports are over-subscribed for the Easter weekend at Bathurst, and even if only half of them could do the 12H, add in the GT boys and some others, you would have the makings of a decent grid.

All good ideas, but the biggest issue is the cost of entering. Rumour was last year that several cars ran with us that could have run the 12 hour because they wanted a run at Bathurst but didn't want to fork out the huge cost for the 12 hour. You won't get half the prod sports field there with the current costs. Clipsal aside, I doubt you'd get half the Aus GT field there, and they have much deeper pockets.

Tyre contract needs to go.
Fuel contract could stay if the priced was reduced. I think most people would be happy to have fuel available for them at an event like this rather than carting it in themselves, but at nearly double the price...
Entry fees for the lower classes needs to be reduced, maybe halved?

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Simon S

back to what can be done, IMHO the priorities are:

1) cost control - no stupid commercial deals for fuel/tyres/etc.
2) Dates, pick one that's far enough away from other events that will be running your target market entrants, 1-2 weeks is not enough time to turn cars round, 4 is about the minimum.

3) spend more time on the middle/back of the grid, the 'glamour' boys will come if they see a strong field that will make them look good.

I keep agreeing with you!!
Some of the egos in motor racing will not come back if they are 10th out of 12 cars--- but if they are 12th out of 50 cars-- they will keep coming back !!

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

I keep agreeing with you!!
Some of the egos in motor racing will not come back if they are 10th out of 12 cars--- but if they are 12th out of 50 cars-- they will keep coming back !!

so, purely from an Ego perspective, how does 2nd out of 47 cars look?

http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re.../2011.MOUN.R11

[B24]

Is it time for a B12 2013 thread?
Hopefully there will be more positive comments than the 2012 thread..

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by B24

Is it time for a B12 2013 thread?
Hopefully there will be more positive comments than the 2012 thread..

maybe we should have a thread about if it will happen, I'm doubtful

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by peckstar

maybe we should have a thread about if it will happen, I'm doubtful

be great to have a thread for 2013 if it all works out good, I would far rather be talking about what a great weekend it was....

Off there for Easter, and really looking forward to it.

[Oldtony]

Maybe we should keep it a secret Simon.
It was an absoloutly magic weekend with something for everybody there.
It is a pity that the growth in numbers of spectators that it needs to survive will probably take away some of attraction of the event in it's present form.
So from my point of view you can keep being negative Pecky, the V8 fans would probably spoil it.

[peckstar]

What i find amazing Old tony is the people that complain about certain issues with the v8series, are praising the same issue in this race.

and those same fans you are complaining about, well if we take them away you have even less of a fan base.

if the v8 fans are so bad why is almost every bit of the promotion i saw had craig lowndes in it, why is that?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by peckstar

maybe we should have a thread about if it will happen, I'm doubtful

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by peckstar

...............if the v8 fans are so bad why is almost every bit of the promotion i saw had craig lowndes in it, why is that?

What promotion??? If you call the B12 website and a couple of YouTube video's, promotion. If that's the best the promoters could do, they did a good job of keeping the whole event a secret.
Lowndes is Australia's most well known motorsport personality, who just happens to drive in the most popular series. Audi saw in him, the capabilities of a good endurance driver (along with Luff). Yeah, it's a good bit of PR, more so for their busloads of dealer hacks and hangers on who got the full corporate spread laid on for the day.
Strictly from a selfish motorsport fans perspective, I couldn't give a rats about the numbers who turn up on race day. We got to go, just about anywhere we wanted to, around the circuit, during the 3 days we were there. I realize that for the event to grow and prosper, race day attendances will have to improve, but to see, up close and personal, some of the worlds best GT cars and a lot of great drivers racing around Australia's and arguably one of the worlds best tracks, it doesn't get any better (in Aus anyway).
Endurance racing isn't always about the finishing result, but we couldn't expect bogan V8SC fans to get that.
Sorry, I just had to throw that in, but you leave yourself wide open sometimes.