[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Napolis]

https://endurance24.fr/la-scuderia-c...nrrgQ32SYihzT4

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Napolis

https://endurance24.fr/la-scuderia-c...nrrgQ32SYihzT4

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a26589381/glickenhaus-future/

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The privateers don't have to design and build hybrid race cars. They've got jumped up LMP2s with unrestricted engines. Anyone can do that. The ACO wants hybrids and extremely efficient engines. The current LMP1 crop (other than Toyota obviously) are anything but that. If you asked Toyota to build and run an LMP1 privateer car that was just an engine and a chassis then the price would drop dramatically. But fuel efficiency is hard (you're asking the team to get more from less), and hybrids are hard. Aero is hard. Suspension engineers are hard.

There's a difference between designing a hybrid hypercar and buying a Dallara and dropping an unrestricted Gibson into the back of it.

Privateers don't get on fine anyway. The Ginetta is as good as dead, the ByKolles isn't great and sets fire to itself, and all the cars need massive rule breaks to keep up. Whilst I'm enjoying LMP1 and the cars, it's hardly a picture of health and looking good for the future right now.

They don't want efficient engines, the rules say they can use any cylinder count and basically any displacement. The only difference I see between a private team and a factory team is that the latter will spend more to get that extra second of pace. I don't see why that even matters anymore when the new rules are going to be capping aero levels and horsepower. Shape a car that looks like a manufacturer somewhat and throw in a powerful reliable engine. The only big thing is that hybrid up front which is not really that powerful.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The only LMP1 OEM that's really left because of "costs" was Peugeot after PSA hit trouble, in every other case it's been done to something else.

Wrong. Played a role in both Audi & Porsche exists. "Because diesel went quickly out of fashion" won't cut it as the sole reason because on the same day they axed the much cheaper WRC program too. In Porsche's case they weren't happy with the WEC was (not) growing, in other words it was about the costs because costs = return of investment.

ACO could've just said "LMP1 cars will continue as it is until 2024 and Zero Emission". Sooner or later another company or more would have jumped in with P1. Not only because of "easier chance to win Le Mans" when only hoing against Toyota, but also because they would be more prepped for the start of Zero Emission once it comes around.

1. Assuming Toyota would stick around racing alone if there's no promise of new OEMs. 2. "Easier" when only going against Toyota = also going against an OEM with a huge experience advantage with a perfected car, that's a part reason why a some sort of rules reset would be needed anyway. 3. Apparently you've misunderstood the zero emission plan: it is only about hydrogen and the intention is clearly a subclass or a completely separate class.

[carbsmith]

I seem to recall the TS030 doing pretty fine against Audi's several years of experience with that generation of regulations.

Kind of weird to cite cutting cheaper programs as the reasoning it was about cost effectiveness.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

I seem to recall the TS030 doing pretty fine against Audi's several years of experience with that generation of regulations.

You don't remember too well. 2012 was when the cars became hybrids, so it was a minor reset. And that was a just a simple KERS system, now LMP1-H is a lot more complicated.

Kind of weird to cite cutting cheaper programs as the reasoning it was about cost effectiveness.

The point was that the reason for WRC program being cut could not have been the sudden change in diesel's marketability, since the program did not involve diesel engines. The program had been very successful (4 double championships in a row) and despite being much cheaper than LMP1 it was still cut.

[carbsmith]

All non-customer racing programs, no matter how successful or cost efficient are ultimately non-essential, and thus going to be among the first things on the chopping block when you have a major business crap up and need to do severe cost cutting.

The current gen LMP1s have had and likely would continue to have some "minor resets" with partial regulation changes over the years. The TS050 is already some ways from what the state of the art would be had competition continued at its previous level.

That's probably avoiding the real issue either way though. What we're looking at is an early 90s post-Group C scenario where they really need a stopgap junk formula that allows people to run for overall wins using off the shelf stuff with minimal R&D but instead they're throwing out rules for another generation of completely new cars where the only thing you can shortcut is maybe the ICE because of the reduced efficiency requirement. The manufacturers coming back to them wanting to run GT1 cars isn't much of an answer either, they're too far up the development curve to where you're pretty much jumping into 1997 GT1 when things started falling apart last time, massively expensive things anyways, and far from reasonable from a safety standpoint unless you just blast LMP2 out of existence to set a viable performance level.

[TF110]

I'm looking less and less forward to the new rules with the new talk going on. I don't want to see extra tall and wide cockpits that look ungainly. I don't want to see the top class turn into a half spec affair in performance. I don't want to see cars that look like GTE's with a fin. I don't want to see 0 emissions with no noise and the green push that's counter productive etc. Hopefully something comes of this though, and the cars are nice and unique and loud. I think that's about all I can hope for and be satisfied with.

[chernaudi]

There's been some shift in the WEC's LMP1 supercar regs in that the ACO are prepared to allow actual hyper cars into the class:

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...rivatives.html

More details should come out next week, per DSC.

[TheMightyM]

Well things just got even stranger. Per S365:

The FIA World Endurance Championship has adjusted its criteria for the upcoming set of 2020 top-level prototype regulations, with manufacturers now permitted to enter race cars based from road-going hypercars.

Confirmed in Thursday’s FIA World Motor Sport Council meeting in Geneva, the decision opens up the possibility to both road car-styled and road car-based machinery competing in the category that is set to replace LMP1.

Details on the expanded regulations, or how the two platforms will be regulated, have not been released.

More here.

[TheMightyM]

And some thoughts:

• How the ACO/WEC handle EoP on road-based hypercars versus pure racing car hypercars will be very, very interesting.

• How does GTE-Pro — what's currently the top of the ACO/WEC's GT ladder — survive this? I mean if your Ford GT or Porsche 911 isn't exotic enough to be in the top class of GT racing at Le Mans, then why would those (and other) manufacturers spend the big $$$s to come and play in GTE-Pro? (Yes, I know the Ford GT is going away but I use it as an example.) Seems like the ACO/WEC to get some manufacturers into hypercars is risking the future of its top GT class.

• Related thought: So when does the top GT class at Le Mans become GT3-Pro?

[broadrun96]

I think you raise a very valid point there, when does everything change to GT at LM. And when does the prototype meltdown begin? Seems like a risky strategy but I'm guessing they had only Toyota and SGR ready to build under the old rules.

And how long until we see a new 919, LaFerrari, McLaren P1 announced? Or do we see any new takers under this change

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[joeb]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I think you raise a very valid point there, when does everything change to GT at LM. And when does the prototype meltdown begin? Seems like a risky strategy but I'm guessing they had only Toyota and SGR ready to build under the old rules.

And how long until we see a new 919, LaFerrari, McLaren P1 announced? Or do we see any new takers under this change

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I'd have to imagine the Aston Valkyrie would be an early taker too since AM have talked about entering the class. Also wouldn't be surprised to see a McLaren entry in the class. I'm still not sold that Ferrari will actually do it. Glick seems like they would be ready to go on this, making their hypercar entry street legal seems right up their alley.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by joeb

I'd have to imagine the Aston Valkyrie would be an early taker too since AM have talked about entering the class. Also wouldn't be surprised to see a McLaren entry in the class. I'm still not sold that Ferrari will actually do it. Glick seems like they would be ready to go on this, making their hypercar entry street legal seems right up their alley.

I had forgotten about Aston, lately their cars have been less that thrilling and honestly I'm NOT a fan of the new look.

Glickenhaus does seem to love the Dr Don idea of drive to LM, race and then drive home again. Honestly if they could build that and race I'd be a fan and find their merch/flag but doubt it can be done.

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[TF110]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I think you raise a very valid point there, when does everything change to GT at LM. And when does the prototype meltdown begin? Seems like a risky strategy but I'm guessing they had only Toyota and SGR ready to build under the old rules.

And how long until we see a new 919, LaFerrari, McLaren P1 announced? Or do we see any new takers under this change

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

New Ferrari hypercar is next year and will be hybrid. Not sure on Porsche, I think they're doing Formula Wee at the same time the new rules take place so they're not in the picture. McLaren has at least a Japanese team in Super GT ready to go the hypercar route. Aston Martin's Valkyrie pro would fit in with a restrictor to it's v12. Toyota has the Gazoo Super Sport coming next year. Maybe Mercedes with the (Project) 1. ByKolles (go ahead and laugh) have shown off their hypercar drawing. Glickenhaus is well along with theirs. That's a good list already even if only half commit.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by TF110

New Ferrari hypercar is next year and will be hybrid. Not sure on Porsche, I think they're doing Formula Wee at the same time the new rules take place so they're not in the picture. McLaren has at least a Japanese team in Super GT ready to go the hypercar route. Aston Martin's Valkyrie pro would fit in with a restrictor to it's v12. Toyota has the Gazoo Super Sport coming next year. Maybe Mercedes with the (Project) 1. ByKolles (go ahead and laugh) have shown off their hypercar drawing. Glickenhaus is well along with theirs. That's a good list already even if only half commit.

From the beginning our LMP 1 was a Race Version of our road Legal Hypercar. We’re also developing our own Hybrid system with Podium Technology who designed the system we used in P 4/5 C. We will offer it for sale to other teams. We may have to use a V6 in our Race Version and a V8 in our road version. V6 lighter more fuel efficient/V8 same HP with emission compliance but both will be very similar.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

New Ferrari hypercar is next year and will be hybrid. Not sure on Porsche, I think they're doing Formula Wee at the same time the new rules take place so they're not in the picture. McLaren has at least a Japanese team in Super GT ready to go the hypercar route. Aston Martin's Valkyrie pro would fit in with a restrictor to it's v12. Toyota has the Gazoo Super Sport coming next year. Maybe Mercedes with the (Project) 1. ByKolles (go ahead and laugh) have shown off their hypercar drawing. Glickenhaus is well along with theirs. That's a good list already even if only half commit.

ferrari new hybrid car will be revealed next may; someone speculates will be some kind of mini-laferrari, an aggressive looking supercar powered by the usual about 700hp 3.9L V8 turbo + a smaller kers.


BTW, to me new regs are quite balanced actually...


ferrari, aston, mclaren and smaller manufacturers like brabham, koenigsegg, glickenhaus could bring their NFS style modified road cars, equipped with spec aero parts maybe, and BOP will do the rest. It was already planned a success ballast afterall.
Considering 1040kg and 680hp+hybrid, even with a poor developed and spec aero parts, these hypercars should be however fast enough to run under 3.30 at le mans.



From 2021 lmp2 will change spec engine and likely will be a smaller engine. About 1000kg and 500hp should place again lmp2 in 3.35 range.


If GTE/GTLM specs will remain stable won't be an issue for anyone, remaining up to 3.45

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

How the ACO/WEC handle EoP on road-based hypercars versus pure racing car hypercars will be very, very interesting.

I don't think 'interesting' is the word to describe it

How about a 'complete incoming mess'

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I don't think 'interesting' is the word to describe it

How about a 'complete incoming mess'

Well yes, that would be another way to describe it.

[Mike E]

At least we can settle on the new name for the top class: Run What You Brung.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Mike E

At least we can settle on the new name for the top class: Run What You Brung.

Exacto!

[Deleted]

That might've been great in the olden times, but today will inevitably lead to a BoP nightmare. Different - especially factory related - ideology concepts within same class end up in a disaster because of this modern thinking of everyone "needing" and "expecting" to be able to win just because they're involved.

If they really need to have two concepts for one, because of OEM lobbying pressure and giving up to it, just split up this GTP thing to GTP1 and GTP2 or whatever...

[TF110]

There is no 'bop'. The statement put out tells us that it's going to be the same as before even with the new allowed cars. There's a set weight, set power, set aero level and success ballast. How is that a bop mess? It's up to manufacturers to build their hypercar or prototype or whatever it is they're running to those levels. If they can't do that then they're not very smart for running the car they have. If thats the case they have a joker upgrade to use. I think people are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

[carbsmith]

I'm not sure how you've determined that when they have announced literally zero regulations for production based cars.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

I'm not sure how you've determined that when they have announced literally zero regulations for production based cars.

And that is exactly what should apply provided there was some minimum no applied to production numbers.
It would take us back to the tradition of Le Mans being the ultimate proving ground for road going cars rather than being a sort of long distance F1.