Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 9 Sep 2019, 13:28 (Ref:3926906)   #1
Born Racer
Race Official
Veteran
 
Born Racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,974
Born Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBorn Racer will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Driving standards/ stewarding

Are things coming to a head with this, or at least is there a change in how drivers go about their racing?

We have discussed before about how the stewards are damned if they do, damned if they don't now. Twenty or so years ago, penalties for driving standards were extremely rare. They let the drivers sort it out among themselves and sometimes drivers would be hard done by and sometimes they would get away with things.

Now, stewards' interventions are par for the course and it is an integral part of the series, in the same way that refereeing is a part of football. I feel that the problem, however, in F1 is that while people have their own ideas, nobody in charge is really too sure of what lines are being drawn and how to be consistent. We see periods of huge amounts of penalties and periods of very few.

I wonder whether due to professional sport becoming increasingly competitive and the competitors increasingly pushing things to the limits to achieve an edge, this will lead to an ugly side of Formula 1. Charles Leclerc, in an interview, admitted quite rationally that the incident in Austria with Verstappen changed how he went about racing and what he did at Monza on Hamilton was one result of that. Are we now going to see the likes of Hamilton respond in kind (someone who, for all his audacious manoeuvres, I have always seen as fair and representing what I personally see as good racing)? Where will this lead us? Many drivers having accidents? With the comparative lack of danger compared to the past and the lack of consequences in terms of accidents for running wide, drivers push others to track limits more than before, it seems.

What about the presence of the black-and-white flag? The stewards have laid down a problematic precedent again. Are we now to expect drivers to always be warned of bad driving in the first instance and possibly punished in the second? They supposedly know the rules, but Monza suggested you can get away with the offence once. The drivers, being wily sorts, will exploit that if they can and push to the limits on a defence like Leclerc's in Monza protesting that they should only be given a warning. And if they aren't given a warning and get a penalty immediately? Where's the consistency there?
Born Racer is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Sep 2019, 14:45 (Ref:3926931)   #2
TrapezeArtist
Veteran
 
TrapezeArtist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United Kingdom
England
Posts: 1,872
TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born Racer View Post
Are things coming to a head with this, or at least is there a change in how drivers go about their racing?

We have discussed before about how the stewards are damned if they do, damned if they don't now. Twenty or so years ago, penalties for driving standards were extremely rare. They let the drivers sort it out among themselves and sometimes drivers would be hard done by and sometimes they would get away with things.

Now, stewards' interventions are par for the course and it is an integral part of the series, in the same way that refereeing is a part of football. I feel that the problem, however, in F1 is that while people have their own ideas, nobody in charge is really too sure of what lines are being drawn and how to be consistent. We see periods of huge amounts of penalties and periods of very few.

I wonder whether due to professional sport becoming increasingly competitive and the competitors increasingly pushing things to the limits to achieve an edge, this will lead to an ugly side of Formula 1. Charles Leclerc, in an interview, admitted quite rationally that the incident in Austria with Verstappen changed how he went about racing and what he did at Monza on Hamilton was one result of that. Are we now going to see the likes of Hamilton respond in kind (someone who, for all his audacious manoeuvres, I have always seen as fair and representing what I personally see as good racing)? Where will this lead us? Many drivers having accidents? With the comparative lack of danger compared to the past and the lack of consequences in terms of accidents for running wide, drivers push others to track limits more than before, it seems.

What about the presence of the black-and-white flag? The stewards have laid down a problematic precedent again. Are we now to expect drivers to always be warned of bad driving in the first instance and possibly punished in the second? They supposedly know the rules, but Monza suggested you can get away with the offence once. The drivers, being wily sorts, will exploit that if they can and push to the limits on a defence like Leclerc's in Monza protesting that they should only be given a warning. And if they aren't given a warning and get a penalty immediately? Where's the consistency there?
Some very good points there, BR.

The inconsistency of penalties over the years means that there is always a precedent for everything. So if F1 really wants to sort the situation out, they need to start by drawing a line and saying that what happened in the past is irrelevant. Here are the new rules now.

Then produce a list of things you are not allowed to do, and a statement of the penalty for each one. There could be more than one penalty for each transgression, allowing stewards a bit of latitude depending on severity. Then apply them rigorously.

Given the ability of F1 competitors to think up ways around things, there would have to be a built-in system to adapt the new rules in the light of experience.

Wherever possible tracks should be designed to avoid the need to invoke the use of the stewards. Track limits is an obvious example. Somehow (and I'm not saying there is an easy answer) drivers have got to be penalised for putting their wheels off the track, but without causing a serious danger. One step would be to get rid of all the wide kerbs, red-and-white stripes, green paint and grasscrete. Drivers are perfectly capable of placing their car to within 100mm so giving them any more leeway than that is just an invitation to use it.
TrapezeArtist is offline  
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was.
Quote
Old 9 Sep 2019, 15:26 (Ref:3926937)   #3
ScotsBrutesFan
Race Official
Veteran
 
ScotsBrutesFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Scotland
West Lothian
Posts: 5,695
ScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Sky F1 did a piece at the Sky Pad with Michael Masi,

It's not on their Youtube channel yet, but here is a link to the Sky Sports website that has the embedded video.

If it's geo-locked sorry, but hopefully they'll upload it to youtube so it can be seen by a wider audience.
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...-race-director
ScotsBrutesFan is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Sep 2019, 16:09 (Ref:3926946)   #4
Greem
Veteran
 
Greem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
United Kingdom
Posts: 5,067
Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!
The 'Naughty Boy (or Girl)' flag is very widely used in national motorsport, at the very least in the UK. One of my favourite radio calls ever was "Chief flag, show the black and white flag to the entire field" in a club race

In that sphere, there's a difference between a bit of a squeeze where both drivers continue and no positions change, compared to a square hit on the rear making a car run wide and lose position. The first gets a B&W, the second may get a penalty *but* mostly only if reported by the nearest observer(s).

If a driver gets a B&W and then repeats the infringement, they get penalised. It's a pretty simple rule to understand, and yes it does get used by the drivers sometimes. It's a bit like the "kerb strike" rule used at some circuits in Supercars, like T1 and T2 at Adelaide where the drivers saved them up for the last few laps. Rules is rules!
Greem is online now  
Quote
Old 9 Sep 2019, 17:25 (Ref:3926957)   #5
Richard C
Veteran
 
Richard C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,803
Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!
I think the problem has been that as the sport becomes more professionally run, it has gravitated to a system in which if anything odd happens, it may be possible to find that an infraction has occurred. This follows that someone must be at fault and eventually leads to required punishment. All very logical in a Vulcan sort of way. However, I don't want Spock as a race steward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post
Then produce a list of things you are not allowed to do, and a statement of the penalty for each one. There could be more than one penalty for each transgression, allowing stewards a bit of latitude depending on severity. Then apply them rigorously.
I have cherry picked a quote from TrapezeArtist and bolded a bit of his post as I think it contains a key element that is new... This is that the stewards are now empowered with the the ability to practice latitude. A quick definition check for latitude gives me "scope for freedom of action or thought". I like that definition. It sort of implies that you have a brain and that you actually examine the situation, context of the moment, etc.

To my point above, the more organized we are and the more the rules are refined it's easy to become mindless robots as to their application. "rules are rules" until people start to question... Why do we have these rules? But the rules exist for good reason. But if you read rules as to the role of the stewards, it clearly shows they have the power to make their own choices. This is not new. What has changed is that I think the expectation previously was for them to be consistent robots. "Precedents" would rule the day and please ignore other factors that everyone else sees, understands and processes into their definition of what is "fare". This results in a disconnect between steward rulings and what the sport (teams, drivers, fans) expected the outcome to be.

Can this flexibility cause problems? Absolutely. The pendulum will continue to swing back and forth between "over" and "under" application of the rules. We can only hope that we don't spend too much time at either extreme. I am however fine with giving this a try vs. defaulting to the robot approach.

Richard
Richard C is offline  
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one."
Quote
Old 9 Sep 2019, 19:49 (Ref:3926982)   #6
gert
Veteran
 
gert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Belgium
Antwerp
Posts: 6,137
gert is going for a new world record!gert is going for a new world record!gert is going for a new world record!gert is going for a new world record!gert is going for a new world record!gert is going for a new world record!gert is going for a new world record!
I think behaviour like that (Leclerc on Hamilton) is now accepted as OK.
The Verstappen-Leclerc action at Austria certainly has its influence.

Personally I would have preferred the other option where drivers were obliged to give the other car a car's width of racing room (i.e. Verstappen's action on Leclerc would have been wrong, as would have been Lecler's on Hamilton) but I'm OK with this if they keep on being consistent.
Same on-track action, same (lack of) steward action.

Inconsistency would be the worst thing.
gert is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 00:22 (Ref:3927027)   #7
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Highlighting the inconsistency of the stewards would be the Vettel / Stroll and Stroll / Gasly incidents at Monza.

Vettel got what he deserved for a low incident that was probably avoidable if Stroll had dropped a wheel of the track.

Stroll escaped penalty for what I would say was an even worse dose of the same because Gasly left the circuit at high speed to avoid hitting him when he rejoined unsafely.

An element of the current stewarding that really bothers me is how people escape penalty when they do something unacceptable and the aggrieved party avoids a contact at great cost to their race.

Hamilton avoiding contact with Leclerc at Monza would be an example when he was not left room. (Compare with Vettel incident in Canada for inconsistency too.)
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 05:29 (Ref:3927051)   #8
Greem
Veteran
 
Greem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
United Kingdom
Posts: 5,067
Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!Greem is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Stroll did get a penalty - a drive through. Vettel got a 10s stop go.

Lesser penalty for Stroll as no contact happened.

That looks pretty consistent application of the rules to me.
Greem is online now  
__________________
Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.
When they realise you have, you'll be a mile away and you'll have their shoes.
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 06:15 (Ref:3927058)   #9
Taxi645
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Netherlands
Posts: 979
Taxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTaxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greem View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Stroll did get a penalty - a drive through. Vettel got a 10s stop go.

Lesser penalty for Stroll as no contact happened.

That looks pretty consistent application of the rules to me.
Also Stroll was already on track in an unsafe position, where as Vettel was off track and came onto the racing line.

Possibly his line of sight was even worsen than Vettel's.
Taxi645 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 09:00 (Ref:3927097)   #10
TrapezeArtist
Veteran
 
TrapezeArtist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United Kingdom
England
Posts: 1,872
TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greem View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Stroll did get a penalty - a drive through. Vettel got a 10s stop go.

Lesser penalty for Stroll as no contact happened.

That looks pretty consistent application of the rules to me.
You are correct on the penalties. However there was no Stroll/Gasly contact because Gasly did a better job of avoiding Stroll (or maybe he was just luckier) than Stroll did with Vettel. So it was the innocent party in both cases who determined whether there was contact, not the transgressor.

It's far too late to look to precedent to determine what should be penalised and what the penalty should be. There are always conflicting precedents that could be called upon. Indeed you could say that the only consistency in the application of penalties is the inconsistency. Jolyon Palmer has made the same call as me for a rewrite of the rules, saying "In my view, F1 needs a complete rules reset." His full analysis is here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863
TrapezeArtist is offline  
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was.
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 09:04 (Ref:3927101)   #11
steve_r
Veteran
 
steve_r's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Lord Howe Island
European Capital of Culture 2008
Posts: 3,519
steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!
I am not sure about the black & white flag thing. We all know that most teams and drivers will push a rule to it's extremes in order to gain any little advantage. Will drivers see the black & white flag as a "free ticket" to allow them to move under braking or crowd another car off track?

Black & White is an ironic colour choice because the interpretation of the rules are about to get a lot less clear cut. Perhaps a grey flag should be used instead!
steve_r is offline  
__________________
It's just my opinion.
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 09:12 (Ref:3927103)   #12
VIVA GT
Veteran
 
VIVA GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
England
Leicestershire
Posts: 5,647
VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_r View Post
I am not sure about the black & white flag thing. We all know that most teams and drivers will push a rule to it's extremes in order to gain any little advantage. Will drivers see the black & white flag as a "free ticket" to allow them to move under braking or crowd another car off track?

Black & White is an ironic colour choice because the interpretation of the rules are about to get a lot less clear cut. Perhaps a grey flag should be used instead!
Yes, the irony in that!
VIVA GT is online now  
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange!
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 09:19 (Ref:3927105)   #13
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_r View Post
Will drivers see the black & white flag as a "free ticket" to allow them to move under braking or crowd another car off track?
This, to me, highlights why it is also not the equivalent of a 'yellow card'.

When a footballer receives a yellow card, this 'reprimand' remains both for the rest of the game and beyond into following fixtures. Most people know that a player is removed from the pitch if they pick up a second yellow (which may align with a second case of unsporting behaviour in F1). But they also are subject to a one match ban after 5 yellow cards (2 after 10 etc).

If the Premier League season is 38 games, then a player will be suspended if he is yellow carded 13% of the time. For the same to apply to F1, then a driver should be suspended after his third Black/White flag.

Thinking about it, this might be the best way to implement the flag - 3 strikes and you're out!
This would allow for the occasional indiscretion, as we saw with LeClerc recently, and still allow the drivers to race. But if LeClerc was to be flagged again in a future race, he would have to be very careful in later races.
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 10:29 (Ref:3927128)   #14
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
The fact that a driver now knows he can make one indiscretion and get away with it was my concern over the flag use, so if the warning was kept on record for the next GPs that would be sensible IMO..... For that reason it’s unlikely to happen!

Wipe the slate clean at the end of the season?
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 10:33 (Ref:3927130)   #15
VIVA GT
Veteran
 
VIVA GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
England
Leicestershire
Posts: 5,647
VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
The fact that a driver now knows he can make one indiscretion and get away with it was my concern over the flag use, so if the warning was kept on record for the next GPs that would be sensible IMO..... For that reason it’s unlikely to happen!

Wipe the slate clean at the end of the season?
I think it should be kept on record for a rolling 12 months (like I presume the current penalty points system works?). That would stop drivers being overly aggressive in the first few races.
VIVA GT is online now  
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange!
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 11:26 (Ref:3927140)   #16
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
I think it should be kept on record for a rolling 12 months (like I presume the current penalty points system works?). That would stop drivers being overly aggressive in the first few races.
I would agree with this proposal.
If part of the reason for seeing the flag used more often is to 'let them race', then it should come with a penalty for multiple times received.

3 times in a rolling 12-month period and you start the next race from the back of the grid?
crmalcolm is offline  
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me."
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 12:00 (Ref:3927145)   #17
Richard C
Veteran
 
Richard C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,803
Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
I think it should be kept on record for a rolling 12 months (like I presume the current penalty points system works?). That would stop drivers being overly aggressive in the first few races.
Why not combine it with the points system? I think Vettel is close to his 12 right now, but generally speaking the points system is a bit of a farce because (to the best of my memory) has anyone been really hit by it? Even if so, maybe it should happen more frequently.

Broadly speaking, I think fan don't want stewards to change race results. I know this doesn't logically make sense, as it implies drivers can flout the rules, but I say make the points system mean something. If you get a black/white flag, get a few points a well?

Richard
Richard C is offline  
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one."
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 12:42 (Ref:3927156)   #18
Taxi645
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Netherlands
Posts: 979
Taxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTaxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Why not combine it with the points system? I think Vettel is close to his 12 right now, but generally speaking the points system is a bit of a farce because (to the best of my memory) has anyone been really hit by it? Even if so, maybe it should happen more frequently.

Broadly speaking, I think fan don't want stewards to change race results. I know this doesn't logically make sense, as it implies drivers can flout the rules, but I say make the points system mean something. If you get a black/white flag, get a few points a well?

Richard
I think that would be a good idea. Otherwise it could get wild west.
Taxi645 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 12:55 (Ref:3927160)   #19
ScotsBrutesFan
Race Official
Veteran
 
ScotsBrutesFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Scotland
West Lothian
Posts: 5,695
ScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameScotsBrutesFan will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Whilst I don't disagree with the idea of making the driving standards flag count in some way, to introduce it when there are drivers with a wide range of points already on the table would be difficult.

For a driver who has no/few points to flout the driving standards in order to win a race in the knowledge that it won't have an immediate effect, a driver on many points at the time its introduced picking up a driving standard warning or points, could put them out of the next race.

The playing field would have to be levelled first.
ScotsBrutesFan is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 13:22 (Ref:3927164)   #20
Richard C
Veteran
 
Richard C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,803
Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan View Post
Whilst I don't disagree with the idea of making the driving standards flag count in some way, to introduce it when there are drivers with a wide range of points already on the table would be difficult.

For a driver who has no/few points to flout the driving standards in order to win a race in the knowledge that it won't have an immediate effect, a driver on many points at the time its introduced picking up a driving standard warning or points, could put them out of the next race.

The playing field would have to be levelled first.
I see your point, but there seems to be a general assumption that driver can now just do whatever they want and at worst get a black/white flag.

I think the use of it should be... "I (as driver) feel lucky I got a black/white vs. a direct race penalty (stop/go, etc.)". Regular penalties should still be handed out for those that move just a bit out of the grey area (such as the recent re-entry in front of other race cars).

I fully recognize this problem is the consistency of application. That some will say... driver X did the same thing last week and only got a black/white while this week driver Y got a harsher penalty.

I will say... that we were already in that situation today before the black/white flag. I would say that tying driver points to black/white flag is "more strict" than the pre-black/white flag situation, but still less strict than it was maybe a year ago (pre... "let them race")

As to the fairness of those who already have points against them and those who don't might take advantage of them. Isn't that the entire point of having a points system? It is long term punishment. If you don't want to get taken advantage of later in the season... don't rack up points early on. As to it being a bit unfair to those who might have a number of points now... Again.. Who is getting punished here. Those drivers with a number of points on their license? So be it! Prior offenses should not be wiped clean.

Richard
Richard C is offline  
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one."
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 14:17 (Ref:3927172)   #21
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,330
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
Well some drivers have got away with more than others. Obviously there is a grey area of what is worthy of a punishment

It’s a shame we have to have this debate as we have seen some good clean battles this season. Obviously there will come a time when harsher things are punished. Those with points on their licence need to watch out, but at the same time it’s hard when people take advantage of them. But they should try and avoid that trap in the first place
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 14:34 (Ref:3927174)   #22
VIVA GT
Veteran
 
VIVA GT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
England
Leicestershire
Posts: 5,647
VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!VIVA GT is going for a new world record!
Being cynical (who me? I just thought I'd try it and see what it feels like) I can see other drivers using it to their advantage too. I driver A (who has few or no penalty points) is coming up to battle with driver B (who is right on the upper limits on points), driver A will know that driver B dare not robustly defend their position in case of risking a disqualification, whereas Driver A has little to lose.
VIVA GT is online now  
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange!
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 14:39 (Ref:3927175)   #23
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 9,719
chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
Being cynical (who me? I just thought I'd try it and see what it feels like) I can see other drivers using it to their advantage too. I driver A (who has few or no penalty points) is coming up to battle with driver B (who is right on the upper limits on points), driver A will know that driver B dare not robustly defend their position in case of risking a disqualification, whereas Driver A has little to lose.
in fairness this happens in many other sports...in basketball it is a fairly common practice to 'attack' a player who has already committed enough fouls to be in danger of fouling out of a game. i would imagine the same for soccer.

some would call this good strategy.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there
I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 15:30 (Ref:3927184)   #24
TrapezeArtist
Veteran
 
TrapezeArtist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United Kingdom
England
Posts: 1,872
TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
3 times in a rolling 12-month period and you start the next race from the back of the grid?
But cannot be combined with other grid penalties for engine, gearbox, etc.
TrapezeArtist is offline  
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was.
Quote
Old 10 Sep 2019, 22:56 (Ref:3927255)   #25
Skam85
Veteran
 
Skam85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Wherever the next race is
Posts: 2,812
Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!Skam85 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post
You are correct on the penalties. However there was no Stroll/Gasly contact because Gasly did a better job of avoiding Stroll (or maybe he was just luckier) than Stroll did with Vettel. So it was the innocent party in both cases who determined whether there was contact, not the transgressor.

It's far too late to look to precedent to determine what should be penalised and what the penalty should be. There are always conflicting precedents that could be called upon. Indeed you could say that the only consistency in the application of penalties is the inconsistency. Jolyon Palmer has made the same call as me for a rewrite of the rules, saying "In my view, F1 needs a complete rules reset." His full analysis is here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863


The BBC don't even bother trying to hide their bias anymore.
Skam85 is offline  
__________________
Part time wingman, full time spud.
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Driver Standards, Stewarding and Regulations wnut Formula One 45 10 Sep 2016 00:21
Consistency in Stewarding wnut Formula One 17 11 Jan 2013 07:09
Changes to Stewarding Marbot Formula One 9 6 Nov 2008 13:57
On-Track Driving Standards Slowcoach Racers Forum 10 28 Jun 2001 07:27
Driving Standards ? Craig Australasian Touring Cars. 32 6 Jun 2001 08:34


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.