The Future of North American Sports Car racing

[Silver 3]

Without trying to flame anyone-- what would the order of importance be--presume you owned all of these (so you have eligible car wherever) Porsche 996 Cup,997 Cup and 997 RSR.
Presuming ALMS is top?? how would you list the various series?
I am not in the US and I am trying to understand the progression from club racer to international.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Scott Atherton delivered his "State of the Series" address at Petit this morning.

The "big" news?

The 2010 schedule (lost St. Pete & added 2 hrs to Laguna to make it six hrs. in May, plus other date shifts) and Drayson Racing will be full-time in LMP class next year.

If that is their "news," then the Series is in Deep, Deep Yogurt, gang!!!!

Well St. Pete may drop dead anyways so I'm glad ALMS isn't involved with that.

Overall in this economy I think they are doing the best they can and while next year may not be one for the history books, there will still be racing at good tracks with cool cars.

[isynge]

Strikes me that the announcement has a lot of continuity in it, which is no bad thing.

The big change is the shift for Laguna Seca - which makes sense in making PLM the season ender and either making space for Asian end season rounds or a legit claim for it to be "the last great race" of the year. It also make Laguna Seca a perfectly legit Le Mans warmup as a long race into the night for ALMS teams with an eye on going to France.

Empty September is a bit of a disappointment, but not overwhelming - but does mean that August could be an utterly chock full month for sportscars overall.

In terms of big news of entrants - unsurprised - but Drayson is undeniable good news, and as a slick entrepreneur he can bring a lot to tacit marketing of the series. I don't think we should underestimate the significance of his involvement.

Delighted to see Road America still on the calendar. I keep promising myself a trip to Elkhart Lake at some stage and so long as it remains on the ALMS schedule it's a possibility...

[DanShenise]

I don't mind a majority privateer prototype field. If they can just get the teams to step up to the plate. Honestly I wish there were some R8s and R10s laying around for private use. I think it bites the hand that feeds you to basically take your toys and go home, sell them. But then again Drayson is my new favorite team, tied with Field.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by isynge

Strikes me that the announcement has a lot of continuity in it, which is no bad thing.

The big change is the shift for Laguna Seca - which makes sense in making PLM the season ender and either making space for Asian end season rounds or a legit claim for it to be "the last great race" of the year. It also make Laguna Seca a perfectly legit Le Mans warmup as a long race into the night for ALMS teams with an eye on going to France.

Empty September is a bit of a disappointment, but not overwhelming - but does mean that August could be an utterly chock full month for sportscars overall.

In terms of big news of entrants - unsurprised - but Drayson is undeniable good news, and as a slick entrepreneur he can bring a lot to tacit marketing of the series. I don't think we should underestimate the significance of his involvement.

Delighted to see Road America still on the calendar. I keep promising myself a trip to Elkhart Lake at some stage and so long as it remains on the ALMS schedule it's a possibility...

The empty Sept. could be making room for Silverstone as a Championship round?? As well as the 5 week period after Le Mans?? That would make Le Mans, Sebring, Petit, Silverstone, a sixth LMS round 2-3 weeks after Le Mans and an AsianLMS round? Something like that?


L.P.

[Speed-King]

No (official) Intercontinental Trophy in 2010

[HORNDAWG]

But prepping for 2011!




L.P.

[mz2k]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

GARRA still has Daytona 24 hrs, which is the only U.S. road race that ever had true international fame a prestige. The France boys know they had the gem, but hopefully even they will realize that a cracked diamond is worth less than a unblemished gem.

Here's a quote by Nic Minassian:

“Coming here and racing in America is the best training you can get,” said Minassian, who won the overall Petit Le Mans pole in a Creation-Judd prototype for the 2007 race. “You get the best fight with the teams…very professional."

He wasn't talking about Daytona 24 hours.

[Purist]

Sebring pre-dates the Continental by 9 years, and the 24 as part of the WSC by 12 years or so. Daytona only got a passing mention and some quick clips during the intro in "The Speed Merchants". I think Sebring garnered some extra attention in the early years as well because it was another one of those events that famously utilized the Le Mans start.

[Birddog07]

'Bit' of a bump, but here is my take on NA Sports Car Racing, and a few bits on what the ACO should do.

I think IMSA is the better (and healthier?) sanctioning body over here. They have the healthy Patron GT3 Series which should be even better with the 2010 997 Cup cars. The rest of their small support series do well too.

My thoughts on their jewel championship, ALMS. First off, I think all races should be atleast 3 hours, including the street tracks. Long Beach needs to stay, drop St. Pete in replacement for Belle Isle. It is a great track in a city which stands for American Cars. I'd like to see Sears Point back also, and Road America to be a 500 mile race once again (well, a dream would be a 24h crown jewel race, but I don't see that happening ) Laguna 6h is a very welcome edition, shame it's not on SPEED. Networks can't go away entirely, it brings in viewers who are just watching TV on the weekend. That's how I found ALMS back in 2000. Lastly, I think the small Lime Rock track should be replaced, in favor of The Glen or New Jersey, a track IMSA already races at.

For the classes. I think LMP 1/2 should stay how it is for 2010. But, P1 should be reserved for factory teams and factory supported teams. P2 private teams that can still race for overall wins. Teams will be allowed all professional drivers. I actually think this is what the ACO should do with their regulations, but the cars should be balanced in a way that they can easily be converted back to ACO regs for Le Mans. Possibly just give different engine restrictors, P1 power being reduced and P2 power being gained. This is probalbly what will happen, simple cheap stuff

Cost-cutted, Pro-Am. spec LMPC should be a hit, but teams should be allowed to compete in the more prestigious Sebring and Petit enduros. For the 24h IDK, maybe let them come in the unlikly event there aren't enough LMP cars, maybe limit teams to 2 cars each. That is for the ACO to work with though. More chasis/engine makes in the future would be nice aswell.

GT2 is strong, but part of why GT1 died off is due to manufactuers mainly Corvette in the US rising the costs and making it too hard for private teams. That's why the 2010 World GT's are pivate teams only. Even with private teams, I think a GT1 car is alittle expensive to purchase and run. I think current GT2 cars should be considered the new GT1 cars, with teams being straight factory and factory backed with professional drivers.

To fill the gap for privateers, they should race GT3. Which, aren't that much slower from GT2 cars. Just like the helthy FIA GT3 in Europe, private teams would purchase homoligated ready to race cars from manufactuers, that can not be modified. IMSA would make sure the cars are even performence. Pro-Am drivers just like in Europe. This would be the new GT2. This would be great to get more manufactuers racing, all they have to do is provide a car for teams to purchase and run.

It would be amazing to see an all ametuer GT Championship, similar to the championships in Europe. Healthy grid sizes with nice car variety. I think the British GT Series is the best with GT3, GT4, and SS classes. All of which are FIA regulations. This could be a good feeder series for drivers and possibly even teams, wishing to compete in the ALMS GT classes. I think IMSA Lites provides a good ladder to go to LMPC's, then professional.

Do I think any of this will happen? Slim to no chances on most of it, but I feel that would rejuvinate NA Sportscar Racing, which the jewel is IMSA and it's ALMS.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Buy grand am then kill it off

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Well, if buying Grand Am included the right to run the 24hours at Daytona, it would be quite an asset

Not only Daytona: the 6 Hours at the Glen, VIRgina, Montreal, Barber and New Jersey are Grand-Am exclusives now and would be great additions to the ALMS calendar.

Birddog07, you should check the changes for 2010 ALMS classes. LMP1 and LMP2 where merged into a single LMP and the 911 GT3s-only ALMS Challanged was renamed GT Challenge (your suggested Pro-Am class). There are already two American amateur grand tourer series: the SCCA Speed World Challange and the Grand-Am Koni Challenge. Btw, 2010 ACO GT1s are the same allowed in the FIA GT1 World Championship.

Originally Posted by Birddog07

I think all races should be atleast 3 hours, including the street tracks. Long Beach needs to stay

Street circuits are expensive because of the danger of crashing. That's why ALMS street races are shorter.

Originally Posted by Birddog07

I'd like to see Road America to be a 500 mile race once again

Me too.

Originally Posted by Birddog07

I think the small Lime Rock track should be replaced

Just as F1 will always race in Monaco, Lime Rock is a classic IMSA venue despite its smallish size.

[997 brakedust]

I like Limerock, but for ALMS, I agree with Birddog, would rather have the Glen on the schedule. Secondy, all non street circuits should be 6 hour races. Lastly, would love to see ALMS at Indy with a 10 hour race. Would be a far more interesting race then Grand Am at Indy. Might attract some of the European teams. What are the chances that would happen?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by 997 brakedust

I like Limerock, but for ALMS, I agree with Birddog, would rather have the Glen on the schedule. Secondy, all non street circuits should be 6 hour races. Lastly, would love to see ALMS at Indy with a 10 hour race. Would be a far more interesting race then Grand Am at Indy. Might attract some of the European teams. What are the chances that would happen?

Watkins Glen will not appear on the ALMS schedule until the tracks ownership changes hands.

At the present time, Indy and the ALMS could not agree upon terms, so unless either change what they want out of the deal, chances are nil that it would happen.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by 997 brakedust

all non street circuits should be 6 hour races

A televised series with such a (commonly) long calendar can't have too many true endurance races. It's fine for shorter championships like the LMS - in fact, they are exploring shorter formats because watchers get bored.

[fasteric]

with Grand Am under Nascar ownership, the idea that they will not be around long, or that Panoz and company could buy them out is shortsighted. They have a strong schedule of tracks owned by ISC and a competive level of entrants (considering the economy). plus a stable TV package. the basic premise is that an owner can buy a chassis /engine package with the knowledge that the rules won't change dramatically for a few years. the France family never liked the ACO changing rules for manufacturers at their whim. I like ALMS and I love the technology of the cars but also i like the class structure of Grand Am...race for the win in DP and class in GT..hard fought races with great drivers..alot of USA drivers against those foreign drivers with close to equal equipment. The cars are so 90's but it makes sense for the owners..soon to be up dated . The Koni series is attracting BMW, Audi, VW,Kia, Camaro, Subaru, and others with a good TV package. Le Mans type sports car racing is awesome..but it doesn't even have a big fan base in Europe...

[Birddog07]

Well that's a good point on the street circuits. Maybe all other normal races 3 hours and street 1.5 I just think that 15 minutes would make a positive differnce in the race excitment, bring it to kind of like a GP race time.

Lime Rock is a classic circuit and I love it, but with these slow GT cars it just gets to congested.

I know the 2010 class changes, but I'm saying LMP1 should be solely for factory and factory backed teams, same with GT2. LMP2 or private teams but they can still compete and hold their own for overalls if races turn their way. LMPC is a good asset too for teams wanting to start LMP programs or have ladders for drivers. GT3 instead of GTC, private teams purchase a full car from manufactuers like in FIA GT3 and race pro-am drivers, but are still strong and could race with the factory GT2's just like LMP1/2. That'd be a dream. Obviously LMPC teams and GT3 teams couldn't further develop their cars keeping costs for them down. Manufactuers could offer upgrades at the end of the season.

We may have to see IMSA take action and drop ACO ruling, I just don't understand how cost cutting and such can happen when regulations are always changing. Not as drastic as F1 with a new car each year, but it can add unneccessary costs. IDK what they'll do. I would really like to see the LMPC and GTC (aslong as they are sped up) cars at Sebring and Petit though, be it possibly non-championship so teams aren't forced into the extra running if they want to stay competitve in the championship. It'll give teams some good enduro running time and test out the spec cars nicely.

10 hours of Indy or even any race at Indy sounds boring. Rovals are boring tracks, atleast for sports cars, although Indy is probalbly my favorite one. Leave the races to classic road circuits, classic street circuits, and any good modern circuits that come about (Miller Motorsports Park). That's just my opinion. Rovals can have Grand-Am race them. If ALMS adds another enduro then it should be The Glen 6 hours and/or Road America 24h Grand Am does have some really nice exclusive tracks though, I'd love to see ALMS race them however that probalbly won't happen

[997 brakedust]

The Daytona 24 hours is the only Grand Am race that I like. Maybe it's because of the drivers that it attracts or maybe because it's in the dead of winter. I like the longer races because of the additional strategy.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by 997 brakedust

The Daytona 24 hours is the only Grand Am race that I like. Maybe it's because of the drivers that it attracts or maybe because it's in the dead of winter.

"After a winter of no racing, I'll even watch Grand Am"...I agree

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

"After a winter of no racing, I'll even watch Grand Am"...I agree

this is true and methinks the prime draw to the Daytona.
being a 24 hour test makes it truly awesome though.

I have grown to like the DP fighting and even their boxiness, they are true race cars, even if they are not the fastest things out there.
the ALMS can be so big as to allow a DP class and get on with it. he grand-am and ALMS would sort out the chaff.
the GT class would be as it has developed and the GT challenge or GT3 classes would be sorted out.
and touring car would grow with the Koni addition.
i don't see it too hard, and in a while it will sort out.
My concern is the IRL Champcar self destruction to happen, or a USAC irrelevancy to happen which appears to be creeping around.
and USAC midgets are awesome, but sprints and WoO seem liek there is no direction.
it isn't bad to have lots of racing, but it seems there is no direction anywhere.
is USAC and end in itself? is GARRA?
IRL is it? We know F1 is and ALMS in association with LeMans is an end and WoO is as well.
so north american Sports Car has some identity strengthening to get done it seems

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Birddog07

I just don't understand how cost cutting and such can happen when regulations are always changing.

Nobody does. If cars get too expensive, then let's ban costly technologies (KERS in F1, active differentials in WRC, etc). Changing every little piece goes against cost cutting, yet nobody seems to notice that.

Originally Posted by Birddog07

10 hours of Indy or even any race at Indy sounds boring. Rovals are boring tracks, atleast for sports cars, although Indy is probalbly my favorite one.

There's an interesting type of "roval" that only exists in Argentina as far as I know. The 2.5-mile Rafaela oval (the USAC raced there in 1971) is currently used with three or four chicanes. That is, a chicane at the end of each straight slow down the cars. There is another chicane in the middle of the back straight and a fourth one in the middle of the last corner. Grand-Am could try that, for example at the Paul Revere 250 at Daytona. Instead of using the inner loop, a chicane could connect turns 1 and 6.

Originally Posted by fasteric

i like the class structure of Grand Am...race for the win in DP and class in GT..hard fought races with great drivers..alot of USA drivers against those foreign drivers with close to equal equipment.

That's not the point of the ALMS. The focus is on making the fastest cars, not driving fast and overtaking.

[Birddog07]

Daytona Roval is already to much oval, which is part of the reason it's so boring, adding a chicane connecting turns 1 and 6 would basically make it a NASCAR track.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by gttouring

this is true and methinks the prime draw to the Daytona.
being a 24 hour test makes it truly awesome though.

I have grown to like the DP fighting and even their boxiness, they are true race cars, even if they are not the fastest things out there.
the ALMS can be so big as to allow a DP class and get on with it. he grand-am and ALMS would sort out the chaff.
the GT class would be as it has developed and the GT challenge or GT3 classes would be sorted out.
and touring car would grow with the Koni addition.
i don't see it too hard, and in a while it will sort out.
My concern is the IRL Champcar self destruction to happen, or a USAC irrelevancy to happen which appears to be creeping around.
and USAC midgets are awesome, but sprints and WoO seem liek there is no direction.
it isn't bad to have lots of racing, but it seems there is no direction anywhere.
is USAC and end in itself? is GARRA?
IRL is it? We know F1 is and ALMS in association with LeMans is an end and WoO is as well.
so north american Sports Car has some identity strengthening to get done it seems

It's not an issue of the ALMS being "so big as to" allow DPs into the field, the issue is Grand-Am will take legal action if Daytona Prototypes wind up somewhere International Speedway Blvd. doesn't want them. Frankly, Grand-Am doesn't want them in an ALMS event. But generally unless it is Grand-Am, amateur racing, or historic racing, Grand-Am doesn't want to see DPs there. I think Grand-Am and ALMS can be different enough products to co-exist in the massive North American market, but Grand-Am just needs to realize that and not be threatened (this is more a suggestion to NASCAR) by friendly, sporting competition in the motorsports industry. That may well be a greater commentary on the state of NASCAR in general and their decreasing confidence in their product, this isn't 2004 anymore, is it Mr. France? ... But that is just my $0.02 ...

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

That's not the point of the ALMS. The focus is on making the fastest cars, not driving fast and overtaking.

I take issue with that. The point of all racing (should be... I suppose the ALMS and ACO sanctioned sports car racing is the last bastion of proper racing on Earth) is to build the fastest possible cars. In racing, and especially sports car racing, the bi-product of that is driving fast and overtaking - which is why Grand-Am is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Don't get me wrong, what Grand-Am does it does very well. That is to regulate the competition to put as many cars on the same square inch of track at any one moment - that does make for hair raising racing, if not a little too much rubbin'. The technology is a little backwards, the cars uninspiring, but a parade of thundering V8s running entirely too closely can be fabulous to watch. Top flight sports car racing? No. America's Premier Sports Car series? No. Can it exist alongside a healthy American Le Mans Series? Yes.

Chris

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

The point of all racing (should be [...]) is to build the fastest possible cars [...] the bi-product of that is driving fast and overtaking

I disagree with that. A simple counter-proof is endurance racing. Drivers must take care of the car to finish (e.g. tires, brakes, fuel), while at the same time must drive faster to finish first. You will find different pit stop strategies and spot aggressive drivers easily overtaking conservative drivers.

That's the opposite of bumper car racing a la DTM / Nascar / V8SA, where drivers fight fiercely the whole race. They are just different flavours of motorsport.

[Jonerz]

Endurance races typically are flat-out sprints these days, you are always at the limit.

Chris

[HORNDAWG]

Pretty much!





L.P.