Who is the Greatest F1 driver of all time?

[52Paddy]

So hard to call this, of course.

I have strong admiration for Jim Clark for his fearless driving style at a time when death was only a minor mistake away. I feel the same about Jackie Stewart and for his heroic efforts in improving the safety standards of the sport during his career while also winning three titles. That counts for a good dollop of kudos in my GOAT criteria. Niki Lauda's comeback from his almost-fatal collision in 1976 is also an incredible story of an F1 career.

And then, Michael Schumacher's world-beating career was something to behold albeit quite tiresome during the period. I find Hamilton's career parallel to Schumi's in many ways. They both showed promise earlier in their career and picked up a world championship (or two). Then they essentially built a whole team focused around them (Schumi with Ferrari, Hamilton with Mercedes). The seemingly unbeatable reign of both was similar in that Alonso pipped Schumi in 2005 and led to end of the era. Rosberg beat Hamilton's double streak in 2016 which shows that he wasn't necessarily unbeatable for such an extended period but, as we can see, rather than falling off like Schumi, Hamilton has gotten stronger with the seasons and still remains at the top of his game.

The questions of records always puzzles me. With a different scoring system than when Schumacher was at the helm and with more races on the calendar it skews the comparison, as we know. So I tend to forget about certain things like overall points accumulated, laps led and, to an extent, directly comparing race wins and poles on a like-for-like basis (there is probably some way of mathematically equalising the situation and getting a better understanding but it's beyond me).

So, in conclusion, I would say that Schumacher/Hamilton are equally the best drivers of all time in terms of what they achieved during their careers. Hard to pick one. But, in terms of a driver who really gives me the WOW factor, it has to go back to the daredevils of the 60s and 70s so that's where Clark/Stewart come into play for me.

[ascarracinguk]

4 races, 4 outstanding drive from Lewis (yes I include the
Imola comeback)

If this season continues as it does, can there be any doubt?

Not that I like to compare eras, but savour this year, it’s shaping up to be very special

[Skam85]

There will always correctly be doubt.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

4 races, 4 outstanding drive from Lewis (yes I include the
Imola comeback)

If this season continues as it does, can there be any doubt?

Not that I like to compare eras, but savour this year, it’s shaping up to be very special

Doubt about the 8th title?

It's nailed on!

[S griffin]

At least he will have to work for this one

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

At least he will have to work for this one

Jury's out on that. Maybe from time to time when the circuit suits Max, but I think we can all see the writing on the wall already....

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by 52Paddy

So hard to call this, of course.

I have strong admiration for Jim Clark for his fearless driving style at a time when death was only a minor mistake away. I feel the same about Jackie Stewart and for his heroic efforts in improving the safety standards of the sport during his career while also winning three titles. That counts for a good dollop of kudos in my GOAT criteria. Niki Lauda's comeback from his almost-fatal collision in 1976 is also an incredible story of an F1 career.
And then, Michael Schumacher's world-beating career was something to behold albeit quite tiresome during the period. I find Hamilton's career parallel to Schumi's in many ways. They both showed promise earlier in their career and picked up a world championship (or two). Then they essentially built a whole team focused around them (Schumi with Ferrari, Hamilton with Mercedes). The seemingly unbeatable reign of both was similar in that Alonso pipped Schumi in 2005 and led to end of the era. Rosberg beat Hamilton's double streak in 2016 which shows that he wasn't necessarily unbeatable for such an extended period but, as we can see, rather than falling off like Schumi, Hamilton has gotten stronger with the seasons and still remains at the top of his game.
The questions of records always puzzles me. With a different scoring system than when Schumacher was at the helm and with more races on the calendar it skews the comparison, as we know. So I tend to forget about certain things like overall points accumulated, laps led and, to an extent, directly comparing race wins and poles on a like-for-like basis (there is probably some way of mathematically equalising the situation and getting a better understanding but it's beyond me).
So, in conclusion, I would say that Schumacher/Hamilton are equally the best drivers of all time in terms of what they achieved during their careers. Hard to pick one. But, in terms of a driver who really gives me the WOW factor, it has to go back to the daredevils of the 60s and 70s so that's where Clark/Stewart come into play for me.

I agree with all you say. To me the other important factor is the superiority of the car which has been a major factor in Hamilton's impressive win rate. I don't think the other 'greats (Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher) had quite the car superiority that Lewis enjoys. How many times were their teammates second in the championship. How many times have Hamilton/Rosberg/Bottas been first and second in the world championship stakes.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by morninggents

To me the other important factor is the superiority of the car which has been a major factor in Hamilton's impressive win rate.

I agree that may have been the case for a lot of Hamilton's career - but you can still only beat those around you.

This year, I am not so sure it is the case. Personally, I think the Red Bull has been the faster car in at least 3 of the 4 races so far. This may be the season that some of Hamilton's detractors have to admit that even when he is not in the fastest car, he is still the better racer.

That to me is what makes the difference between some drivers - not how well they do when situations favour them, but how well they achieve results when situations are against them.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

...Personally, I think the Red Bull has been the faster car in at least 3 of the 4 races so far...

i read yesterday that Max has so far led twice as many laps as LH this season.

im already in the Ham camp so this is no doubt a biased point to make...but additionally relevant is how LH is responding this year. after several years of having a minimal challenge, that he is responding right out of the gate so strongly is in itself impressive.

rather, he doesnt seem to be afflicted with the type of complacency that can sometimes follow years of success. quite the opposite really as he seems to have found another gear even.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I agree with all you say. To me the other important factor is the superiority of the car which has been a major factor in Hamilton's impressive win rate. I don't think the other 'greats (Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Senna, Schumacher) had quite the car superiority that Lewis enjoys. How many times were their teammates second in the championship. How many times have Hamilton/Rosberg/Bottas been first and second in the world championship stakes.

Schumacher and Senna had greater car superiority in at least one of their title seasons than Lewis has had in general I would say?

Hamilton has faced a field much less spread out in the last 2-3 years than say 1988 when Senna in the Mp4/4 could be 2 secs a lap faster. Thankfully Ayrton had a serious rival as teammate and not a no.2. In contrast Schu's 2002 and sometimes 2004 Ferrari had enormous advantage but without inner-team threat.

Hamilton has not had a full threat from a teammate since Rosberg went but betwn 2014-2016 Merc were much further ahead of the opposition. Since 2017 with other teams relatively close on lap time Merc do not want to risk their 2 drivers taking points off each other.

[S griffin]

I'd say Mansell in 92 probably had the biggest car advantage, no one could get near him and his team mate Patrese even beat Schumi and Senna into second in the championship. Not like McLaren in 88 or Mercedes in 14-16 when they had two superstars in the best car, which probably made the car look even more dominant than it actually was

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by peterelise

Speaking for myself, there are two main things that have me concluding Hamilton is better. Firstly, because Hamilton has done it without ever needing to resort to questionable/dangerous/unsporting driving tactics. I didn’t follow F1 as closely in Senna’s era as I do now so my views are formed by things I have read and watched (like the Senna movie) but which I think are widely accepted. Secondly, I think it is also true that Hamilton has never objected to any particular team mate whereas Senna is on record as having felt the need to do that.

I say all of that as someone who would have said Senna was the best until I have watched Hamilton’s career unfold. And I have arrived at this view despite initially feeling some antipathy towards a young Hamilton who thought the world was against him notwithstanding the fact he went straight into a top team. While I still feel like there is something about Hamilton that suggests he isn’t being authentic I have also grown to admire him for the way he has conducted himself around supporting and promoting diversity.

And to explain my comment about feeling a lack of authenticity, it is probably because I find it hard to believe that in his heart he doesn’t think he is the reason that Mercedes keep winning - that his comments about his team are said because he knows it is the right thing to say rather than because he truly believes it. I acknowledge that probably says more about me and my cynicism than about Hamilton.

I acknowledge your reasoning.

The interesting thing about your last paragraph is that I think he's as conceited as others would presume.

I don't think he thinks the results are all down to him, and I think he has a greater sense of what's going on than even his most staunch fans.

The anecdotal evidence I present is that at the 2016 title showdown, with the anticipation of a new type of cars coming in for 2017, I do remember that he unequivocally acknowledged how great the 2014-16 generation MB was.

In recent years when everyone is happy to lay the boots into Vettel, Hamilton is the only one who I've heard defend him. I remember in an interview he brought up that earlier in the decade he and Vettel were in reverse situations of the current.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

4 races, 4 outstanding drive from Lewis (yes I include the
Imola comeback)

If this season continues as it does, can there be any doubt?

Plenty. By the end of this season, Hamilton would've used the dominant MB engine for 1-2 races short of Ayrton Senna's entire career.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Not that I like to compare eras, but savour this year, it’s shaping up to be very special

Yeah, I bet.

Hamilton is the biggest beneficiary of the corporatisation of F1 in the last 30 years. Fantastic stats, but 7-8 titles would be the equivalent of 3 on the more volatile F1 of the past.

The good news is that 3 titles from the earlier decades is more than enough to be in the top echelon of drivers in history.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Plenty. By the end of this season, Hamilton would've used the dominant MB engine for 1-2 races short of Ayrton Senna's entire career.


Yeah, I bet.

Hamilton is the biggest beneficiary of the corporatisation of F1 in the last 30 years. Fantastic stats, but 7-8 titles would be the equivalent of 3 on the more volatile F1 of the past.

The good news is that 3 titles from the earlier decades is more than enough to be in the top echelon of drivers in history.

I do love it when you try to devalue Hamilton by throwing in the ‘dominant Mercedes engine’ argument like it’s the only thing that makes a car go round in circles.

It’s ok though, let’s play your little game.

1) Fangio can lose a couple of championships because he jumped ship to always be in the best car
2) Jim Clarke can lose a championship for the dominant monocoque lotus
3) Senna and Prost can lose a championship for being in the dominant carbon monocoque Mclaren
4) Mansell can lose his championship for being in the dominant active suspension Williams
5) Schumacher can lose a few championships because Ferrari had their own spec Bridgestone tyres and subservient teammates
6) Button can lose his championship because of the dominant brawn
7) Vettel can lose a couple of championships because of the dominant Red Bull.

It’s funny, I’ve never seen you arguing those points, or applying the same rules to them....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I do love it when you try to devalue Hamilton by throwing in the ‘dominant Mercedes engine’ argument like it’s the only thing that makes a car go round in circles.

It’s ok though, let’s play your little game.

1) Fangio can lose a couple of championships because he jumped ship to always be in the best car
2) Jim Clarke can lose a championship for the dominant monocoque lotus
3) Senna and Prost can lose a championship for being in the dominant carbon monocoque Mclaren
4) Mansell can lose his championship for being in the dominant active suspension Williams
5) Schumacher can lose a few championships because Ferrari had their own spec Bridgestone tyres and subservient teammates
6) Button can lose his championship because of the dominant brawn
7) Vettel can lose a couple of championships because of the dominant Red Bull.

It’s funny, I’ve never seen you arguing those points, or applying the same rules to them....

I don't think those examples are comparable, with the possible exception of Ferrari, considering Mercedes have won a record 7 WDCs in a row and if current form continues, it will be 8.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't think those examples are comparable, with the possible exception of Ferrari, considering Mercedes have won a record 7 WDCs in a row and if current form continues, it will be 8.

Why not?

A dominant car is a dominant car whether it’s 1 year or 10...if 2L wants to start deleting Hamilton’s championships because of one component of a car, then let’s do it for all of the above.

Each of those examples had revolutionary components which made them dominant...or teammates who were made to give the number 1 driver an easy ride.

Hell, Clarke had a monocoque chassis when the rest of the field were still using tubes.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't think those examples are comparable, with the possible exception of Ferrari, considering Mercedes have won a record 7 WDCs in a row and if current form continues, it will be 8.

I think they are too. The fact that MB and Hamilton have done it for longer just illustrates how good they (and Lewis) are at their job. What it certainly does is devalue the efforts of the other teams and drivers who consistently fail to match them.

(But I still think Senna is the GOAT.....).

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

The fact that MB and Hamilton have done it for longer just illustrates how good they (and Lewis) are at their job.

I also feel it is a justifiable comparison - and part of the argument to back up Hamilton being in the tribe.

Other members of the tribe are there because they were in the right car at the right time - that is part of being a great F1 driver.

Did Fangio move to the best car - or did the best team(s) put Fangio in their car?

A driver will only be given a seat in a car if he is considered good enough to achieve the team's objectives. Mercedes' objective has been to claim consecutive WCC/WDCs - they've put the best driver in their lead car to achieve that. To my mind - it doesn't devalue but actually enhances Hamilton's standing. The fact that Mercedes continue to want him in their car 9 years after they first signed him reinforces that reputation.

If you think they have a dominant car - why would they make such an effort to retain him?
If you think they are in a genuine contest with Red Bull - that's why they made such an effort to retain him......

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I also feel it is a justifiable comparison - and part of the argument to back up Hamilton being in the tribe.

Other members of the tribe are there because they were in the right car at the right time - that is part of being a great F1 driver.

Did Fangio move to the best car - or did the best team(s) put Fangio in their car?

A driver will only be given a seat in a car if he is considered good enough to achieve the team's objectives. Mercedes' objective has been to claim consecutive WCC/WDCs - they've put the best driver in their lead car to achieve that. To my mind - it doesn't devalue but actually enhances Hamilton's standing. The fact that Mercedes continue to want him in their car 9 years after they first signed him reinforces that reputation.

If you think they have a dominant car - why would they make such an effort to retain him?
If you think they are in a genuine contest with Red Bull - that's why they made such an effort to retain him......

Exactly.

It always makes me laugh, people say Ferrari were great because of schumacher helping to build the team around him....but never seem to give Hamilton the same credit....apparently it’s all to do with the car.

The fact Hamilton has maintained this level, for so long, beating all of his teammates in identical equipment shows it’s not just the car.

Hamilton is an integral part of Mercedes success...if it was just the car, Chuck MazeSpin in it and save a load of money.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

That to me is what makes the difference between some drivers - not how well they do when situations favour them, but how well they achieve results when situations are against them.

Two names come to my mind when reading this, Vettel and Alonso. When he feels the car is not perfectly fitted to his requirements, its hard for the first to fully express himself while the second will give his maximum whatever the conditions.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Why not?

A dominant car is a dominant car whether it’s 1 year or 10...if 2L wants to start deleting Hamilton’s championships because of one component of a car, then let’s do it for all of the above.

Each of those examples had revolutionary components which made them dominant...or teammates who were made to give the number 1 driver an easy ride.

Hell, Clarke had a monocoque chassis when the rest of the field were still using tubes.

Why do you think they are comparable? There's a massive difference in being dominant for 1 year, as opposed to being dominant for 10 years and being able to sustain that dominance over those years. That is why I said with the possible exception of Ferrari, who in that respect are the closest to Mercedes.

You mention revolutionary components, like the monocoque chassis used by Lotus, but what revolutionary component, or components are Mercedes using? As for teammates, some have been made to give the number 1 driver an easy ride, or easier ride.

[chillibowl]

drivers are a part of the team. A major part really so as such im not sure how you can seperate a great driver from a great team/car.

to drive a car to its maximum potential is what its all about imo.

LH has done this!

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Exactly.

It always makes me laugh, people say Ferrari were great because of schumacher helping to build the team around him....but never seem to give Hamilton the same credit....apparently it’s all to do with the car.

The fact Hamilton has maintained this level, for so long, beating all of his teammates in identical equipment shows it’s not just the car.

Hamilton is an integral part of Mercedes success...if it was just the car, Chuck MazeSpin in it and save a load of money.

That's because Schumacher was a major factor in building Mercedes into what it is today

If it wasn't just the car, Russell would have not been able to step in and almost win on the first attempt.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why do you think they are comparable? There's a massive difference in being dominant for 1 year, as opposed to being dominant for 10 years and being able to sustain that dominance over those years. That is why I said with the possible exception of Ferrari, who in that respect are the closest to Mercedes.

You mention revolutionary components, like the monocoque chassis used by Lotus, but what revolutionary component, or components are Mercedes using? As for teammates, some have been made to give the number 1 driver an easy ride, or easier ride.

We judge championships from the start of the year to the end.

2L wants to delete some of Hamilton’s championships because of a dominant car, those cars above that other drivers used were also dominant, so let’s play by the same rules and do the same.

Yes I agree there’s a difference between dominating for 1 year or 10 but as pointed out above, that shouldn’t diminish Hamilton and Mercedes achievements, it should enhance them.

In an era where rules are so tightly controlled and you can’t gain seconds a lap by having a monocoque chassis compared to a steel frame or special one off tyres, it’s astonishing how Mercedes and Hamilton have stayed ahead of the curve for so long.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Skam85

That's because Schumacher was a major factor in building Mercedes into what it is today

If it wasn't just the car, Russell would have not been able to step in and almost win on the first attempt.

Right.......so schumacher gets credit for Hamilton’s work now even though he’s not been in the car for 9 years...I do hope that’s tongue in cheek lol.

Russell Is a talented lad but let’s not forget he’s done hundreds of laps in that car in testing and thousands of laps in the Mercedes sim, he wasn’t new to the car.

You’re talking about an experienced race fit driver jumping into a familiar car....

...again, it’s funny, when Max jumped into the red bull in 2016, no one was talking about it being all about the car when he won....it was Max’s talent. Why aren’t we applying the same rules again?