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Old 13 Nov 2022, 21:08 (Ref:4133543)   #51
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That we do not know.

Selfish **** sounds about right then.
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Old 13 Nov 2022, 21:38 (Ref:4133546)   #52
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I didn't get to watch the post race interviews and podiums, but kmag getting a pole felt more exciting.
Still happy for Russell to get his first win. Always special.

Poor call on verstappen/Hamilton. Max had one, Hamilton kept racing and kept the battle going through 2. Then kept max going off the track. How on earth the stewards believe in those fractions of a second a driver should admit defeat is confusing. Racing incident at best, Hamilton noted at worst.

Max was robbed. ROBBED SKY!!!! DO YOU HEAR ME
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Old 13 Nov 2022, 23:03 (Ref:4133558)   #53
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I think for the first time, Max can feel hard done by there in a collision with Lewis, I think in virtually every other case it’s either been a racing incident or the vault lay at Max’s door.
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Old 13 Nov 2022, 23:05 (Ref:4133559)   #54
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Max Verstappen overtook Sergio Perez and was asked to give the place back if he didn’t pass Alonso, but refused to do so. This really confused me. Why on earth would Verstappen do something so irrelevant to himself, but that would cause bad blood in the team and make fans hate him. Seems like a ridiculous thing to do.

Then one of the commentators mentioned payback. While I was trying to work out what that was about, they then mentioned Perez’s crash in Monaco. Yes, that was bad for Max, but I didn’t understand why that would bother him six months later, when Perez has helped him out so many times.

But perhaps it was mentioned because a rumour in the paddock, now leaked, is that Perez crashed deliberately in Monaco and has since admitted it to Red Bull. Everyone was in uproar when Schumacher, Rosberg and Leclerc crashed to take pole in the past, but nobody batted an eyelid for Perez, because it would have been to take third instead of fourth, and beat his teammate, an irrelevant act, so nobody was looking for it.

Here is the crash: https://youtu.be/zaGCnbm0Frs
I have to say, it is rather dodgy. If that had been for pole I certainly would have cried foul. But the thing missing is the motive, maybe it was just annoyance over having to yield position twice in Spain the week before. But if that wasn’t deliberate it was a very poor mistake.

So it seems like maybe Verstappen just found out about this, and is rightly livid as it was a deliberate ploy to sabotage him from his own teammate. He effectively admitted that Monaco was what he was referring to in an interview afterwards. https://streamable.com/b5a9zn

He still shouldn’t have done that though, as if it is true, it had leaked the story of what his teammate did to the world.

This is obviously all a rumour, and I will reserve judgement on if it is true for now. But either way, there is clearly bad relations at Red Bull right now.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 01:02 (Ref:4133563)   #55
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With the way Max has driven in the past there should be no need for any driver to give max room for his trolley at the local grocery store let alone on the racetrack.

However, the decision was bewildering.

It would be beneficial to the viewers, spectators and teams if such decisions were played out in the open, similar to cricket's DRS, where the third umpire walks through the replays and tools at his disposal to reach a decision.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 03:47 (Ref:4133574)   #56
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Karun spent some time on the Max/Lewis incident with the sky pad after the race explaining why he believes the stewards penalised Max. In short, because he accelerated into a disappearing gap and arrived at a speed with which he could not have made the corner on the tight line he was on. Evidenced by the fact that Lewis and Max both ended up exceeding track limits on exit after the impact.

Max himself basically said he carried on to drive into the side of Lewis as he could tell Lewis wasn’t going to yield the corner which confirmed for me Max could have avoided the incident if he chose to.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 05:25 (Ref:4133577)   #57
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Yeah, at some point those two are going to have to work out how to race each other without crashing - both of them have form with each other at times.

Defo Max primarily in the wrong this time but both of them race the other differently to the way they race others & at some point it would be good if the pair of them were able or prepared to grow up & sort all that out.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 05:32 (Ref:4133578)   #58
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With Max and Lewis it was a tight call either way.Max sending Lewis a message that the titles haven’t made him soft and if they are dicing for wins or titles he won’t be intimidated.
The Perez situation was bizarre.All this aggravation over 6th and 7th places.Why would it be rational to put your team mate off side and cause friction in the team over a pretty out there conspiracy theory on qualifying in a race 6 months ago?
Congrats to George on a deserved win.Commiserations to Magnusson who was a victim of some particularly bone headed driving.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 06:32 (Ref:4133580)   #59
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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
I think for the first time, Max can feel hard done by there in a collision with Lewis, I think in virtually every other case it’s either been a racing incident or the vault lay at Max’s door.
I looked at it from as many different angles as I could find and then decided that the officials were right about where they laid the blame.
Then after the race I listened to the driver interviews on F1, all 20 of them.
Max said that Lewis wasn't going to make room but 'I wasn't going to back out either..'

He was the master of his own penalty.
He can't really complain. He has a better view of the situation then Hamilton and he makes the judgement and the commitment regarding whether or not it's going to come off. In this case he decided NOT to back out of it, so it is what is.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 06:51 (Ref:4133581)   #60
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I think for the first time, Max can feel hard done by there in a collision with Lewis, I think in virtually every other case it’s either been a racing incident or the vault lay at Max’s door.
Apart from when Lewis took him out at Silverstone 2021.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 06:52 (Ref:4133582)   #61
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With Max and Lewis it was a tight call either way.Max sending Lewis a message that the titles haven’t made him soft and if they are dicing for wins or titles he won’t be intimidated.
The Perez situation was bizarre.All this aggravation over 6th and 7th places.Why would it be rational to put your team mate off side and cause friction in the team over a pretty out there conspiracy theory on qualifying in a race 6 months ago?
Congrats to George on a deserved win.Commiserations to Magnusson who was a victim of some particularly bone headed driving.
Very poor from Max but apparently Checo already admitted to Monaco in the team, so hardly an out there conspiracy theory.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 07:01 (Ref:4133583)   #62
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I think in virtually every other case it’s either been a racing incident or the vault lay at Max’s door.
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Apart from when Lewis took him out at Silverstone 2021.


virtually: adverb - 'nearly; almost'


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Old 14 Nov 2022, 07:18 (Ref:4133584)   #63
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Max himself basically said he carried on to drive into the side of Lewis as he could tell Lewis wasn’t going to yield the corner which confirmed for me Max could have avoided the incident if he chose to.


For me - the most telling part of the incident is Max's explanation of how he knew there was going to be a collision, but still chose that course of action.
He pretty much admits that he knew it was likely to cost Hamilton a race win, but was not bothered by his own penalty due to their lack of pace. "I immediately felt he was not going to leave space. I just went for it, he didn’t leave me space, so I knew we were going to get together. It cost him the race win, for me it gave me five seconds. It wouldn’t have mattered anything for my race, because we were just way too slow."
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 07:41 (Ref:4133586)   #64
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Apart from when Lewis took him out at Silverstone 2021.
I think even that was a racing incident, but probably more blame on Hamilton. If you look at the trajectory of Maxs car as he enters the corner he is in no way going to stay within the white lines, so he entered the corner knowing he was going to run wide over the exit kerb and tarmac runoff. I think Hamilton thought Max was going to back out but didn’t because Max had decided to run wide and I think that may have caught Hamilton off guard. I think context is important too and In the races previous Max had done some pretty savage chops on Hamilton so maybe it was a little bit of payback, who knows.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 07:45 (Ref:4133587)   #65
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I think even that was a racing incident, but probably more blame on Hamilton. If you look at the trajectory of Maxs car as he enters the corner he is in no way going to stay within the white lines, so he entered the corner knowing he was going to run wide over the exit kerb and tarmac runoff. I think Hamilton thought Max was going to back out but didn’t because Max had decided to run wide and I think that may have caught Hamilton off guard. I think context is important too and In the races previous Max had done some pretty savage chops on Hamilton so maybe it was a little bit of payback, who knows.
I totally agree that MV had done some well over the top chops, but anyone who ever raced Silverstone in a winged car knows there is no way LH was going round that corner, and LH knew it well too.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 09:03 (Ref:4133597)   #66
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I have no issues with Ver not giving place back - he is not obliged to do so, but then do not moan if Per or any other team mate will not help in the future

RB are in a situation where they rely so much on Verstappen that he basically owns the team at this point and he knows it. RB will never annoy/**** off Ver as they have no one to come up and take over if Ver is to leave. I guess that is not an issue now as Ver is still young so no need to worry about succession yet. But we have seen plenty in F1 when one team relies on one driver to win and when they leave/retire they end up struggling for a few years - i.e Renault-Alonso / Mclaren-Senna / even RB- Vettel. I think Merc were going same direction until they finally decided to take Russ in. More kudos to Ferrari now , starting to prioritise a succession to Schumacher in the mid 2000s even if it meant annoying him as they had to think about the future than get caught up

Quite entertaining race- but Brazil always seems to deliver
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 09:16 (Ref:4133601)   #67
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Karun spent some time on the Max/Lewis incident with the sky pad after the race explaining why he believes the stewards penalised Max. In short, because he accelerated into a disappearing gap and arrived at a speed with which he could not have made the corner on the tight line he was on. Evidenced by the fact that Lewis and Max both ended up exceeding track limits on exit after the impact.

Max himself basically said he carried on to drive into the side of Lewis as he could tell Lewis wasn’t going to yield the corner which confirmed for me Max could have avoided the incident if he chose to.
Exactly right IMO.

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With Max and Lewis it was a tight call either way.Max sending Lewis a message that the titles haven’t made him soft and if they are dicing for wins or titles he won’t be intimidated.
Other way around, I think.....

Entertaining race highlights after skipping past all of the RBR/Horner stuff. I saw the Max/Hamilton incident different to some and it appears that even Max knew that he was going to drive into Lewis rather than ease off/brake.

Sad to see Ricciardo continuing to tarnish a reputation that has almost disappeared anyway.

Whatever Max's reasons, not good enough. He disobeyed a clear team order and Horner and co can't afford to let him get away with that.

But, far more importantly, well done George Russell. Great race, not a mistake in sight. Well deserved.

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Old 14 Nov 2022, 09:30 (Ref:4133609)   #68
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Wow, what a race. Well done to Russell, he deserved his first win. Didn't put a foot wrong from start to finish, survived both SCs and the only time he lost the lead was when he pitted. Mercedes are definitely back. Now Hamilton has only one race left to avoid having a winless season for the first time in his F1 career

Max's move looked very risky. Even if Lewis had left him more room, he was unlikely to make it stick without contact. The Norris/Leclerc incident seemed to me a case of two into one doesn't go and it's always a risk to go outside there. Still what a recovery from Charles from going into the wall to finish 4th

Max may have his reasons for not letting Checo through, but it just shows he still hasn't matured fully yet. Really liked Checo's 'shows who he is' radio message at the end. Max needs to realise that support works both ways

Alpine, good recovery after the sprint race debacle. Alonso 17th to 5th was a great drive. Vettel looked good for a points finish, before he slipped down the order after the second SC. Nice to see Bottas in the points. Disaster though for McLaren and what a difference 48 hours makes for Kevin Magnussen

So a great race at a great race track. Abu Dhabi has a lot to live up to after that
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 09:49 (Ref:4133621)   #69
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The Norris/Leclerc incident seemed to me a case of two into one doesn't go and it's always a risk to go outside there.
That's exacly what I said (to noone in particular!) at the time. You can get away with 'round the outside' from time to time but not every time. You're a hero when it works, but when it doesn't you'll probably wish you hadn't tried it....
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 09:57 (Ref:4133627)   #70
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George: Great drive
Lewis: Great drive despite being driven into
Carlos: Great recovery from the overheating brake
Leclerc: Great recovery from the accident
Alosno: Great drive not driving into Ocon
Max: Great example of being a complete prick
Perez: Great example of why you won't get anything at RBR

Max/Lewis: Well it was 80/20 on Max until he admitted he knew it was about to be an accident. There's a difference between an accident and driving into other cars.

Lando/Leclerc: Would've called it 50/50 but Lando mounted the kerb which pushed him wide into Leclerc.

Danny/KMag: Normally Dannys inability to drive modern cars only affects Danny. This time he managed to ruin the feel good story of the weekend through an accident that people would've called for another driver (let's say, Stroll) to have their license removed. Dannys F1 career can't end soon enough.

Also enjoyed the amount of team mate melt downs this week. One AMR driver driving the other off the road. One Alpine driver driving into the back of another, and then having the audacity to claim they moved. A Ferrari driver wanting something. A RBR Driver being a prized prick.

Looking forward to Fernando in an Aston next year. He drives into things. His team mate aggressively blocks things. It's gonna be great.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 10:26 (Ref:4133634)   #71
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What about the comeback drive by the Flying Finn to finish 9th in the Alfa? Especially when you realise how long its been

Well done Keke Rosberg!

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Old 14 Nov 2022, 10:30 (Ref:4133636)   #72
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I especially enjoyed the Sky F1 post race promotion for Toto Wolfe's retirement gig doing a Marcel Marceau tribute show.

I was kind of hoping Toto would do it through interpretive modern dance!
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 10:36 (Ref:4133638)   #73
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How exactly will Ver help Perez in AD? To be 2nd in Championship Perez has to finish ahead of Leclerc - so not much Ver can do other than deliberately slow down Leclerc and let Per drive away or give up his position if Perez is 11th and Leclerc out of the race.
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 10:45 (Ref:4133639)   #74
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George: Great drive
Lewis: Great drive despite being driven into
Carlos: Great recovery from the overheating brake
Leclerc: Great recovery from the accident
Alosno: Great drive not driving into Ocon
Max: Great example of being a complete prick
Perez: Great example of why you won't get anything at RBR

Max/Lewis: Well it was 80/20 on Max until he admitted he knew it was about to be an accident. There's a difference between an accident and driving into other cars.

Lando/Leclerc: Would've called it 50/50 but Lando mounted the kerb which pushed him wide into Leclerc.

Danny/KMag: Normally Dannys inability to drive modern cars only affects Danny. This time he managed to ruin the feel good story of the weekend through an accident that people would've called for another driver (let's say, Stroll) to have their license removed. Dannys F1 career can't end soon enough.

Also enjoyed the amount of team mate melt downs this week. One AMR driver driving the other off the road. One Alpine driver driving into the back of another, and then having the audacity to claim they moved. A Ferrari driver wanting something. A RBR Driver being a prized prick.

Looking forward to Fernando in an Aston next year. He drives into things. His team mate aggressively blocks things. It's gonna be great.
Pretty good summary that....
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Old 14 Nov 2022, 10:52 (Ref:4133643)   #75
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Looking forward to Fernando in an Aston next year. He drives into things. His team mate aggressively blocks things. It's gonna be great.
Fine shout there sir, I've been looking forward to that ever since FA signed for them!
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