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5 Dec 2019, 14:45 (Ref:3944990) | #7251 | ||
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If the ACO manage to screw this up, all I can say is listen to these lyrics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2alBKpZVLVA |
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Power to me is having the ability to make a change in a positive way. Don't dream it, be it. |
5 Dec 2019, 15:21 (Ref:3945005) | #7252 | ||
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,312
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Quote:
Never mind the ridiculous let's slow everyone down so all classes are tripping over each other. I haven't spent the full 24 hours watching in a few years and now doubt I'll watch beyond a few minutes of the race with hypercars. It just feels like they wanted to destroy their own rules to not be DPi 2.0. |
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5 Dec 2019, 17:12 (Ref:3945019) | #7253 | ||
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Posts: 10,935
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Quote:
Call me cynical but this all seemed fine and we were getting a ByKolles hypercar and the ACO never said anything. And then Peugeot turn up and suddenly no privateers. Aye, ok. |
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5 Dec 2019, 20:36 (Ref:3945052) | #7254 | ||
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,654
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No one never said that privateers cannot run. All they need is to have a badge on the car from an automotive manufacture - something we already see plenty of today!
Rebellion and Peugeot are a great example of this. If Peugeot pulls out, the Rebellion team still stands and can continue to run the Peugeot hyper car or go back to their old ways of getting TVR, Lotus or Zenvo badging on them. Joeat racing did not disappaer after Audi either and I would not be surprised if they would buy a hypercar sometime in the future. Again the new “rule” is so vague that all ByKolles need to do is call it Lotus and stick a badge on it and they can run it. (Which also helps with the selling of merchandise) |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
5 Dec 2019, 20:47 (Ref:3945054) | #7255 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,935
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So the new rules are sticker engineering, or you can't run? Come on man. What exactly are we trying to achieve here, other than attempting to milk manufacturers? What exactly is the gain for the teams and fans?
I can't see any positives to this change, but I can see plenty of negatives. |
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5 Dec 2019, 21:56 (Ref:3945074) | #7256 | |||
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Posts: 6,654
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Quote:
The more casual fans, the more money goes into the WEC eco system. Think of it in the same way if a national teams plays, then you attract more viewers than lf it is a non-national team. |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
5 Dec 2019, 22:38 (Ref:3945079) | #7257 | ||
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Quote:
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6 Dec 2019, 07:38 (Ref:3945126) | #7258 | ||
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Quote:
It's a ridiculous rule that's written by someone who looked at the failure of the LMP1 Hybrid class and thought "More of these issues please" |
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6 Dec 2019, 07:50 (Ref:3945128) | #7259 | |||
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,654
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Quote:
Besides getting a brand/badge on a car seems quite easy already today, unless you are gunning for a full partnership. However the new rules does not state of which dept the branding needs to be - it seems that a single sticker and a name on the entry is all it takes. Even here in Denmark (who have never really produced any credible car to date) we have two automotive manufactures who would jump on this chance! I honestly do not see a niche manufacture saying no to getting there brand on a Le Mans entry and therefore no issues for a privateer build hypercar not being able to run. |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
6 Dec 2019, 16:13 (Ref:3945234) | #7260 | ||
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Posts: 4,361
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6 Dec 2019, 19:40 (Ref:3945267) | #7261 | |||
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Quote:
In the LMP2 reduction of power realm, doesn't that just put the p2 cars in a similar position to where they are in IMSA? I seem to remember a power reduction for this past season. |
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6 Dec 2019, 20:32 (Ref:3945279) | #7262 | ||
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Not sure what IMSA did (though they did restore DPIs back to their early 2017 performance specs), but the ACO are asking for a 40bhp power reduction for LMP2s. Which IMO might not slow them down that much itself. I'm thinking that the spec tire will do more to slow them down.
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Power to me is having the ability to make a change in a positive way. Don't dream it, be it. |
6 Dec 2019, 23:21 (Ref:3945291) | #7263 | |
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Posts: 15,392
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The tires won't be the problem imo. I don't think they will purposely make a crappy tire or one that's extremely hard because gentleman drivers are in the class and they are the backbone of p2 entries. Making a tire that purposely has bad performance would be a hindrance to those guys and imo, would jeopardize them entering or staying in the wec. They better be careful.
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7 Dec 2019, 04:57 (Ref:3945317) | #7264 | ||
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Didn't stop Grand Am from getting fields full of pro-am line ups with the junk that Hoosier/Continental and Pirelli made in the past. Then again, DPs were easier to drive on the limit I think than the LMP2s may be now, though that's because of how aero dependent LMP2s are, and they need speed to get that aero grip.
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Power to me is having the ability to make a change in a positive way. Don't dream it, be it. |
7 Dec 2019, 17:25 (Ref:3945388) | #7265 | |
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DP was about as fast as GTE. Much slower cars and the series had been using the same tires for a while. Different scenario here because of the drivers being used to the type of tire currently on the cars. They risk a lot of blowback if they change it up. I think it'll be Goodyear for lmp2 and they're trying to improve upon the Dunlops that were ran, not go backwards.
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7 Dec 2019, 18:10 (Ref:3945392) | #7266 | ||
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Quote:
https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...egit-tire-war/ “Michelin is really involved with the teams, trying to push hard,” Van der Garde told Sportscar365. “We are also trying to push Michelin quite hard ourselves. We’ve done quite a few full days of testing and I must say I was pretty happy with the performance. “I think Dunlop also changed their tires quite a bit and I think they have also made a good step. To me, the Michelin is very close to the Dunlop. And I don't think they will be putting even half the effort they're doing now, there's no reason to when the only ones you're trying to please is the press releases. |
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8 Dec 2019, 04:03 (Ref:3945503) | #7267 | ||
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Quote:
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8 Dec 2019, 11:43 (Ref:3945549) | #7268 | ||
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Quote:
Anyway yes, nothing is as bad as Hoosier-Continental was in Grand-Am and the fusion series. What made it worse was the constant praise everyone was required to give them on TV and press releases, I doubt people have that in their contracts on this side of the pond |
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8 Dec 2019, 12:08 (Ref:3945555) | #7269 | ||
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Posts: 1,869
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If tire companies are competing in one series in a class like wec p2, spec tire classes (elms p2, imsa p2) usually just get the previous recipe. They don't get stuck with the original version of a tire for years. It's just like hand me downs, not onesies forever.
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8 Dec 2019, 15:46 (Ref:3945585) | #7270 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,935
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Slowing down the P2s means we can look forward to many incidents of Am P2 drivers dive-bombing GTE cars again. Can't wait for when they decide to speed up LMP2 in a few years and want credit for fixing the problem they created.
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8 Dec 2019, 17:46 (Ref:3945598) | #7271 | ||
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560bhp is still about 50-60 more hp than what the GTE cars make, and I'm betting that at LM the LMP2 trap speeds will still be fairly impressive depending on what the LMP Hypercars do.
If GTE cars can barely touch the crippled Toyotas at Shanghai on top speed, taking 40bhp away from LMP2s probably won't do too much. And the LMP2s were a bleep to pass for the Toyotas at Shanghai. And if it does become an issue, I can see the ACO taking a few bhp away from the GTE cars. You do have to remember that this sort of started with the post 2015 rules giving them more aggressive aero and a power boost. One issue though that I do think needs to maybe be addressed is that LMP Hypercar and LMP2 will be spec tire. There were rumors that both GTE classes might be as well, but the ACO have backpedaled on that recently. If GTE classes remain open tire, especially GTE Pro, we can see even with a power reduction laptimes remain the same though tire development. Though overall times are irrelevant as long as there's still enough top speed separation. |
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Power to me is having the ability to make a change in a positive way. Don't dream it, be it. |
8 Dec 2019, 20:22 (Ref:3945620) | #7272 | |
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Toyota still had the hybrid boost and the best drivers in the world. A power reduction and Am drivers is not a good plan.
But we all know this. It's fine, it'll get changed again when Hypercar laptimes turn into what we all want them to be now. It's a damn BoP class, so there's no reason to not make them faster. If Aston Martin are pretending that they're having to detune the car (aye, right), then just make the cars faster. |
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9 Dec 2019, 01:11 (Ref:3945641) | #7273 | ||
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If Toyota's 2.4 twin turbo V6 is capable of 600bhp (I think their claim of 500bhp is way conservative, when you consider that the Gibson in the Rebellion is claimed to make nearly 700bhp), and the aformentioned Gibson is a 4.5 liter V8 and makes about 700, then 700+ out of the Aston Martin 6.5 liter V12 shouldn't be a problem.
Biggest issue with Hypercar is the ACO's proposed approx 3:30 lap time around LM, and the weight bump to 1100kg. LMP2s detuned by 40bhp and at 930kg will probably still easily do significantly below 3:30 on current Michelin or Goodyear rubber. I personally highly doubt that even with 700-800hp and 1100kg that Hypercar will be at 3:30 or lower. We won't be seeing sub 3:20s out of them, but I think that 3:30 is pretty low as to what to expect out of Hypercar. Last time that a top class car ran 3:30s in qualifying or the race at LM was 2006. You can't just undo nearly a decade in a half of what has been learned since then. Look at GTE Pro. Those cars are much heavier than the old GT1 cars, have narrower tires, and a lot less power, and have to run steel brake rotors. But they're now as fast if not faster than the last of the top flight GT1s were. Take them down to 1100-1135kg, give them 600+bhp and carbon brakes, they'll be a ton faster, as in what GT1s could be doing now on modern tires. Also, LMP1 Hypercars will also be 2000mm wide like the pre-2014 LMP1s. I don't know if that means that wider wheels and tires will be back, though. And we have to remember that there were concerns of LMP1s and LMP2s stacking up on each other at LM and other power tracks because of similar if not higher top speeds of LMP2s, but that never really happened. Last edited by chernaudi; 9 Dec 2019 at 01:18. |
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Power to me is having the ability to make a change in a positive way. Don't dream it, be it. |
9 Dec 2019, 15:09 (Ref:3945734) | #7274 | |
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Keep in mind LMP2 will have spec tires so plenty of opportunity to slow them down a few more seconds with harder rubber if needed.
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9 Dec 2019, 17:27 (Ref:3945766) | #7275 | ||
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Posts: 1,920
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Very good DSC interview with Vincent Beaumesnil that allows to clarify many things.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/1...5OwO1DGAthp180 |
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