How to fix F1?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by coppice

And yes yes , before you have another funny turn , I do know that the rules require the tyres to be crap .

Aw, shucks, I feel better now and am in full recovery mode.

Tyres were tested in the old days on track and they still did not meet the non exploding and lasting a full race requirement quite often because they are designed as an experiment when it is all said and done if F1. This small point escapes most people. It has always been like this, make some tyres, take them to the track and see what happens but with no testing you see the testing in a race with no opportunity to go back and fix the experiment for the race.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Time won't "tell" in regard to "viewpoint" (taste, opinion). It is what it is at the moment. One's viewpoint, taste, opinion or whatever one calls it is neither "right" nor "wrong", no?
I had a couple of AMC vehicles (my first car a '67 American, and a '74 Gremlin daily driver that became a race car) and loved the products. AMC folded but that doesn't make my appreciation of it's cars any less "right". 'Keepin' my eyes out for another Gremlin as we post....

I agree that “tastes” differ and there is no right or wrong from that perspective. “Taste” is subjective. I am more concerned about objective measures. I am looking at the series as a whole. Is it healthy? Is it’s prospects for long term viability looking good? These are things you can measure objectively. My “opinion” is that if things don’t substantiate change, then the outlook is negative. If we focus on that (which can be measured), then yes, time will tell.

My opinion is that it’s a slow motion trainwreck, but it could take years or decades to eventually crash and burn. Other top series do it periodically. I am puzzled why some think that F1 is immune from this prospect? Even then, I have hope. It’s clear that most feel something is wrong. By “most”, I don’t mean the participants of this thread or forum. I am talking about the larger F1 community as a whole. Liberty/FOM, FIA, the teams, fans, pundits who follow the sport professional, etc. The level of alarm is not unified, but the concern is there. People are trying to fix it. They are floundering, but they are trying. The problem is and always has been, what exactly to do. This thread is a microcosm of F1. We can’t agree on what the problems are, so we can’t agree on the solutions.

As to my own subjective opinion, within many of my comments on this topic, I put forth solutions that reflect my subjective taste (how can I, or anyone, not). But, I feel that in the end, I am trying to focus on twisting knobs that may generate positive outcomes which can be measured objectively. Such as fan satisfaction, health and longevity of teams, etc.

Lastly, I am not here to tell you, or anyone else that they are wrong if they like F1 100% or some lesser value. I admit, I am confused as to why you are happy with the status quo, but if you like it as it is today. Enjoy it while it lasts. I enjoyed the recent era of WEC prototype racing, but also fully understood it was on the knife edge of failure at the same time.

Back to F1. I like it more than I dislike it, but that ratio gets closer and closer to flipping the wrong way each year. I would prefer that switch not happen. I have very irrational ideas that this thread will generate positive ideas and that maybe, just maybe, in some way, it might help nudge the direction of the adjustments that are being made. There is little else I can do as a fan than voice my opinions and hope someone listens. I am deeply and personally invested in the sport. If I didn’t care, I would walk away from it today and focus my energies elsewhere.

Richard

[Oldtony]

Hi Richard,


My devious question was to try and bring about some thinking and comment on what we DO like about F1, in particular what keeps us coming back year after year.


My particular interests really don't extend to the temperament and ego of the drivers and their mind games but I do admire demonstrations of skill, mechanical sympatico and strategic and tactical nous. I am much more of the opinion that F1 is, and always should be a team sport.



I am excited and interested in the development of the machinery, advances in control systems and handling. In particular I am an admirer of developments which add to the science of transportation and how it fits with the need for ongoing change in a world with a population that has increase by at least a facto of 3 in my lifetime. F1 is a very important laboratory for the future in both human and technical improvement.



Now I agree that F1 cannot ever be viewed as perfect. The whole point of the exercise it to strive to improve the skills and science of land based human transport.


Personal ambitions would be to see nunber of races in a season dropped to around a dozen, an increase in length to around 4 hours, more limitation on the amount of energy consumed, restriction on aero but more freedom on active driver aids and more freedom in testing.


Reluctantly all those points would probably require some sort of cost capping.


I have set these out as my PERSONAL opinion and I don't claim that they would make for better racing or attract more fans.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I admit, I am confused as to why you are happy with the status quo, but if you like it as it is today. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Richard

Confused? I can't imagine why...I'm weary myself of repeating my position
'Clarification:

I'm happy with the status quo because it's, as I've stated repeatedly, the display of the very best, performing their very best. From the (very importantly) salesmen knocking on doors for funding thru the pilots behind the wheels when the checkered flag is waved. As it always has been.
I was neither a Ferrari nor Schumacher fan and 'tired of their years of dominance. Nonetheless I enjoyed it as they deserved what they achieved. I never once gave a thought to changing the sport for "real" (huh?) racing. I was watching real racing (definitely not close) and excellence on display..
I've also enjoyed the top of sports cars but that is apparently over as the best shall be penalized with weight depending on the points acquired....such nonsense has lost me.
Thanks, but I need no provocation to enjoy it while it lasts, as I had with sportscars (BoPing me right out the door), Indycar racing driving me out with spec chassi/body, and NASCAR with all of it's nonsense. All, to appease those that want...nay, need...so called "real" (orchestrated) racing.
As much as it's all too short for me, and they don't turn corners, maybe I'll return to drag racing...I know of no levelng of the playing field there ('could be wrong as I haven't been following since the sixties...)

That's why. 'Still confused?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jimclark

How does one fix what is not broken???

The title of the thread is: "How to fix F1?"

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Confused? I can't imagine why...I'm weary myself of repeating my position
'Clarification:

I'm happy with the status quo because it's, as I've stated repeatedly, the display of the very best, performing their very best. From the (very importantly) salesmen knocking on doors for funding thru the pilots behind the wheels when the checkered flag is waved. As it always has been.
I was neither a Ferrari nor Schumacher fan and 'tired of their years of dominance. Nonetheless I enjoyed it as they deserved what they achieved. I never once gave a thought to changing the sport for "real" (huh?) racing. I was watching real racing (definitely not close) and excellence on display..
I've also enjoyed the top of sports cars but that is apparently over as the best shall be penalized with weight depending on the points acquired....such nonsense has lost me.
Thanks, but I need no provocation to enjoy it while it lasts, as I had with sportscars (BoPing me right out the door), Indycar racing driving me out with spec chassi/body, and NASCAR with all of it's nonsense. All, to appease those that want...nay, need...so called "real" (orchestrated) racing.
As much as it's all too short for me, and they don't turn corners, maybe I'll return to drag racing...I know of no levelng of the playing field there ('could be wrong as I haven't been following since the sixties...)

That's why. 'Still confused?

No and yes. As to “no”, I can’t complain about your thoughts above. As to “yes”, you describe a very narrow view of reality above.

Let me try to craft a metaphor. You get water from your tap. Some say there are problems with it. It tastes bad, it costs too much, some have switch to bottled water, etc. while I agree with some of those, my main concern is that the city reservoir is going dry and looks to run out soon. For you, the water comes out of the tap when you turn the knob. You like the taste. Everything looks fine. I am confused why your not concerned about the reservoir.

With that being said, your position clearly frustrates me, but it is your position. As least for me, I hope I am done discussing this specific point. I am going to try to move on. Cheers.

Richard

[Peter Mallett]

I don't know where my local reservoir is.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I don't know where my local reservoir is.

Could that be because it is bone dry?

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I don't know where my local reservoir is.

My reservoir is Tesco, I have outsourced the worry of the reservoir running dry to them by only using their water. If they can't supply I'll simply switch to Waitrose water. Not my problem.

This is my situation with F1. I've outsourced my worries as to what can fix it to Liberty. If i don't enjoy the product (the reservoir runs dry) I'll simply watch WEC. Not my problem. Up to Liberty to get me back, F1 is merely one of a number of motor sport options I can watch.

One of the things they could do is make it free to air. The product isn't compelling enough to pay for it, which I have done with WEC/Le Mans.



Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I don't know where my local reservoir is.

It will depend on where "local" is at the moment, Peter

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The title of the thread is: "How to fix F1?"

You're quite alert. We need more lerts...I only noticed that about 3 months ago.

'Same question tho'.... How does one fix that which is not broken?

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

No and yes. As to “no”, I can’t complain about your thoughts above. As to “yes”, you describe a very narrow view of reality above.

Let me try to craft a metaphor. You get water from your tap. Some say there are problems with it. It tastes bad, it costs too much, some have switch to bottled water, etc. while I agree with some of those, my main concern is that the city reservoir is going dry and looks to run out soon. For you, the water comes out of the tap when you turn the knob. You like the taste. Everything looks fine. I am confused why your not concerned about the reservoir.

With that being said, your position clearly frustrates me, but it is your position. As least for me, I hope I am done discussing this specific point. I am going to try to move on. Cheers.

Richard

We have choices in life. Don't try. Do it. Commitment, determination, and execution work fine. Just get 'er done!

I find midgetman's response quite succinct. (except I don't find F1 to be the reservoir. It's just a few gallons, as in his (her?) paragraph two.

Originally Posted by midgetman

My reservoir is Tesco, I have outsourced the worry of the reservoir running dry to them by only using their water. If they can't supply I'll simply switch to Waitrose water. Not my problem.

This is my situation with F1. I've outsourced my worries as to what can fix it to Liberty. If i don't enjoy the product (the reservoir runs dry) I'll simply watch WEC. Not my problem. Up to Liberty to get me back, F1 is merely one of a number of motor sport options I can watch.

One of the things they could do is make it free to air. The product isn't compelling enough to pay for it, which I have done with WEC/Le Mans.

'Solved. C'mon over! We get both.

[midgetman]

Thank you, and I'm a "he".

Over on the "F1 on TV" thread is a link to a YouTube of the 1973 British race. Difficult cars to drive, a real penalty for going off line - and the noise! Plus Silverstone was somewhere the spectators wouldn't recognise today. Flat out, big balls racing, there's no way I could do that.

F1 today looks too easy. Of course it's not, but the cars are so capable Lewis barely seems to raise a sweat. Take the number of keyboard heroes on any forum saying "gamers are as skillful as F1 drivers." Well yes it certainly looks that way and it shouldn't do. I want my heroes to be heroes, clearly super men for taking these brutes. This is very fast, very dangerous and very, very scary. No way should an ordinary person on a PC be able to do it, they would be terrified.

So either give the cars more power or less grip. Make them awesome. Let us see quite how magnificent and fast the current crop of cars actually are flat out, not in second gear around a stadium "because it's easy to see the sponsors' logos".

I don't care how Liberty do it, but that film of the 1973 British GP reminded me what I want from motor racing. Spectacle! Big Boy circuits! Hairy chested racing cars!

I do find that from the WEC, and the WRC too. F1 is getting marginalised in my mind. That's what needs fixing.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jimclark

You're quite alert. We need more lerts...I only noticed that about 3 months ago.

'Same question tho'.... How does one fix that which is not broken?

Some think it is broken, hence the thread.

What's a lert?

[Aysedasi]

Something your country needs (needed)........


'Stay alert'

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Something your country needs (needed)........


'Stay alert'

It's, your country needs you.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's, your country needs you.

https://goo.gl/images/JVgFHe

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by midgetman

So either give the cars more power or less grip. ...Let us see quite how magnificent and fast the current crop of cars actually are flat out, not in second gear around a stadium "because it's easy to see the sponsors' logos".

I don't care how Liberty do it, but that film of the 1973 British GP reminded me what I want from motor racing. Spectacle! Big Boy circuits! Hairy chested racing cars!

Yet those 70's cars only pulled 2g's, whereas the current cars pull up to 5g's in the corners! While the current cars are somewhat ugly and don't sound as good as they could, I think the cornering capabilities and determination of the drivers (when they have a challenging circuit with little runoff and not painted lines in a carpark) are not in doubt IMO.... Refer: Suzuka qualifying highlights to remind you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqRsStQ7dK0

The main reason the 60's and 70's cars drifted through the bends is because they had crossply tyres. When the radial tyres came in, in the 80's they didn't drift through the bends anymore as radial tyres operate at smaller slip angles.

The idea that less grip will see them drifting in every bend and be "harder to drive" is not correct IMO.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's, your country needs you.

It's English humour. Stay alert, tether it to a post.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Yet those 70's cars only pulled 2g's, whereas the current cars pull up to 5g's in the corners! While the current cars are somewhat ugly and don't sound as good as they could, I think the cornering capabilities and determination of the drivers (when they have a challenging circuit with little runoff and not painted lines in a carpark) are not in doubt IMO.... Refer: Suzuka qualifying highlights to remind you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqRsStQ7dK0

The main reason the 60's and 70's cars drifted through the bends is because they had crossply tyres. When the radial tyres came in, in the 80's they didn't drift through the bends anymore as radial tyres operate at smaller slip angles.

The idea that less grip will see them drifting in every bend and be "harder to drive" is not correct IMO.

If I remember correctly, it was Michelin who introduced the radial tyre to F1, in the late '70s. There is quite a bit of drifting from Gilles Villeneuve in this tribute to him and I don't mean when it was a wet race. https://youtu.be/lDfRD9QnU34

[djinvicta]

lert
(n) A small furry woodland creature that senses are always very intensely attuned to its surroundings.
You must be a lert.
To be a lert you must be constantly aware of the things around you.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Some think it is broken, hence the thread.

Oh. Who woulda' thunk it...?

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

What's a lert?

You're catching on. It's one of you. Alert. Get it?
If not, maybe you're not.

I realize the spontinaiety is gone but, ala Foghorn Leghorn... (www.megawavs.com/play.aspx?id=984)
"I say.....I say.....I say it's a joke, son, 'just a joke..."

[chillibowl]

How can you say 'spontaneity is gone' when all you do is advocate things have always been and will always be the same?

Times change brother and nothing stays the same. It doesnt need to be broken but it does need to change...that's the world.

I'm usually not this confrontational but it's the holidays and I have imbibed...the new year is about to dawn no? Dont you want it to be better than last year?

Alert and a lert right?

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

(A) How can you say 'spontaneity is gone' when all you do is advocate things have always been and will always be the same?

(B) Times change brother and nothing stays the same. It doesnt need to be broken but it does need to change...that's the world.

(C) I'm usually not this confrontational but it's the holidays and I have imbibed...
(D) the new year is about to dawn no? Dont you want it to be better than last year?

(E) Alert and a lert right?

Imbibed indeed. You're all over the place.
(A) How? When you have to explain a joke, the spontinaiety is gone; it loses it's flavour (humour).
(B) Absolutely about the change...(I know of the Tofflers, 'got Future Shock around here, somewhere). Not always for the better, however...'just don't want to see excellence watered down.
(C) I don't feel any confrontation at all, thanks. If that's your intent, shame on you.
(D) Of course. Happy New Year!
(E) If you have to ask, I guess not.

[chillibowl]

A to E...this is boring.

Congrats you win.