Scrutineering Advise Please

AndyV · 31 Jul 2006, 08:54 (Ref:1668613)

I need a little advice regarding scrutineering procedures.

In scrutineering at my last race I had a query raised about my roll cage. The scrutineer believed it did not fully comply with the blue book where the back stays connected to the rear hoop just inboard of the hoop bends rather than on the bends themselves. I do not belive it is contrary to the rules and after racing with the same cage for the last eight years was stunned to be picked up on it. But after amicable discussion I was still allowed to race.

However, I was told that the Chief scrutineer would be making a "note" of the infringement. Does anyone know what this means? as doing rule a mid-season cage change is just not possible for me but I still want to race with what I have and not be turned away summarily at the next meeting.

Cheers
Andy

NiG_21 · 31 Jul 2006, 12:30 (Ref:1668844)

Sorry to hear you had trouble there Andy...

When they make 'note' of an infringement then you will find that it is noted agaist your car for future events... they will likely re-check the cage specifically the next time you turn out.

What you should do (if you can) is write to the maker of the cage and see if you can get a copy of their homologation certificate for the cage. You can show that to the scrutineers at the next event to prove your innocence.

Alternatively put the roof back on then they won't be able to see it!!!

AndyV · 31 Jul 2006, 14:12 (Ref:1668947)

[QUOTE=NiG_21]"When they make 'note' of an infringement then you will find that it is noted agaist your car for future events... they will likely re-check the cage specifically the next time you turn out."

And therein lies my issue, despite the previous 8 years of no problems any further scutineering will focus on the cage and despite me beliveing it is compliant, then I will not know it passes until just before a race.

[QUOTE=NiG_21]"What you should do (if you can) is write to the maker of the cage and see if you can get a copy of their homologation certificate for the cage."

The problem that was picked up was the joint position from the original manufacture, but as I have since welded previously bolted roof and door bars then any homogulation is now invalid as I've changed the cage from its originally supplied arrangement. (do safety devices still exist anyway?)

I'm in a bit of a quandry now as I either expend substantial time and cash on a new cage effectively ending my season, or expend substantial time and cash on going to the next race meeting not knowing if I'm allowed out on the track.

Sometimes trackdays do look sooooo attractive and hassle free.

Andy

***Chris Y*** · 31 Jul 2006, 14:18 (Ref:1668952)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiG_21

The problem that was picked up was the joint position from the original manufacture

No problem then surely? Their beef was the position of the joint, and if you can show the cage was homologated with the joint in that position, then that should demonstrate the cage is legal, or at least demonstrate that you believe to the best of your knowledge that it's legal, and you have tried to make sure, etc.

greenamex2 · 31 Jul 2006, 14:52 (Ref:1668972)

Err, this has got me worried.

The blue book is really unclear on this subject and I think my kit cars roll cage might transgress this intepretation of the 'wording'.

In fact most of the roll cage section is wooly at best.

Let us know if you hear more.

JohnD · 31 Jul 2006, 18:39 (Ref:1669177)

Andy,
The Blue Book, Section Q, Para 1.2.3, says backstays "must be attached ... near the top outer bends of the main roll bar.." The problem lies in the interpretation of "near".

You could also point out to them Drawing No.Q52, that shows "Alternative positions for rear braces" one of which is a signifiant distance from the corner.

I wonder if a fillet of similar sized tube, welded in the corner between the stay and the actual corner, might show willing and strengthen the cage joint? Without a full rebuild.

For comparision, I'll try to include a pic of my own cage, whose backstays are definitely not at the bend, but below and a spare Spitfire cage wwhose stays are well within (but 'near' to) the bend. I fear that you may be the vitim of your own preference for outdoor driving. Put the roof back on!
http://img286.imageshack.us/img286/5...ollcagetm5.jpg
http://img279.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ollcageff3.jpg
An 'independent' assessment from an MSA scrutineer(s), of the present situation and your proposed solutions might settle this. The MSA should give you the names and details of some scrutineers in your area, who might be wiling to give an opinion. They may expect a fee, or at least travel expences.

John

NiG_21 · 31 Jul 2006, 19:14 (Ref:1669202)

is that the next scrutineer may specifically look at the cage and think it's fine - then the note gets taken off your car.

I had the same problem with my seatbelt mounts a couple of years ago... one scrutineer didn't like them directly behind the seat at shoulder level so he told me to change them for the next race... I did and fitted eye loops to the rear deck. At the next race, the (different) scrutineer specifically checked the mounts and said the new one was fine, but why wasn't I using the other ones as they looked much better and fitted blue book regs better!!!

You were racing with the Morgan Sports Car Club and I don't know if they hold the scrutineering notes of the MSA do? Either way I would do a bit of home work to show you know your stuff and we can ask Ron to look over it for you at the next race (he is an MSA scrutineer you know). We may not be racing with the MSCC again - depending on what's on offer next year

AndyV · 31 Jul 2006, 21:12 (Ref:1669343)

Subjective interpretation is the problem and from reading the blue book more deeply I belive that I have a good case to put forward.

I've written to the MSA for to get the text of the scutineers note to ensure I address the correct areas. Then if I can make some mods before the next meeting I'll try and get a local Scrute to take a look. Fingers crossed that its not major work.

Andy

Charger500 · 31 Jul 2006, 21:22 (Ref:1669352)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyV

The problem that was picked up was the joint position from the original manufacture, but as I have since welded previously bolted roof and door bars then any homogulation is now invalid as I've changed the cage from its originally supplied arrangement. (do safety devices still exist anyway?)

Bear with me here this is 3rd hand... Find someone/comapny that make & fit bespoke cages. You'll usually find that they deal with an engineer (I understand that they will/should be MSA/FIA registered) that can inspect the cage and supply a puka MSA/FIA Certification.

I think the best people to track down are from the Drag racing crowd, they usally have bespoke built chassis and cages...

It means you'll have to drag the car off to some where for it to be inspected but then you'll be able to wave the said document at a scrutineer next time you get pulled up...

midgetman · 1 Aug 2006, 16:22 (Ref:1670084)

>>>>>>>>>When they make 'note' of an infringement then you will find that it is noted agaist your car for future events... they will likely re-check the cage specifically the next time you turn out.

Where is this "note" held? How do they know where AndyV's turning up again? Do all scrutineers get a "black list" at the start of every event? Never heard about this before - is this a move towards passports/log books for cars?

Thnaks

scrutineer · 1 Aug 2006, 18:15 (Ref:1670192)

You will find that the notes are made and passed to someone who will be at your next event. Its not hard to find out were you are next, most of you have your champ details stuck on the side. The notes may also be passed to your eligibility scrutineer who follows you around and can check on your changes. But dont take it for granted that the notes wont be passed.
Maybe post some pictures and we can have a look. But if you want to find a scrutineer look in the blue book (Look for National A and above) who are in your local area.

archaic gold · 1 Aug 2006, 18:32 (Ref:1670206)

Where is this "note" held? How do they know where AndyV's turning up again? Do all scrutineers get a "black list" at the start of every event?

Specifically, I would not wish to get directly involved in this case, but "notes" can be passed to the Championship organisor, or a Specific Clerk of the Course if one has been dedicated to this paricular Championship.

scrutineer · 1 Aug 2006, 19:23 (Ref:1670239)

.

scrutineer · 1 Aug 2006, 19:24 (Ref:1670240)

There is not a little black book with peoples names in, however like all people we do talk to each other and names/cars/championships are mentioned and problems talked about, so even if a note on paper isnt made a mental one will be.
In this case the note was probably made and this will have been passed to the chief of the meeting who would then inform your event organiser or eligibility scrutineer so you would be wise to get it checked out.

midgetman · 1 Aug 2006, 20:08 (Ref:1670292)

Thanks for the info.

Am I right in thinking speed event cars have a logbook? Would it not be a simple thing for all comp cars to have one? Would it work well?

MM

JohnD · 1 Aug 2006, 20:13 (Ref:1670303)

I had this about noise maybe five years ago. I was 1 decibel over, and was threatened with not being allowed to race. I appealed to to the Senior Scrutineer, and was allowed to do so, though told that my dereliction would be noted and that I would not be allowed the same leeway another time.

JOhn

scrutineer · 1 Aug 2006, 20:37 (Ref:1670328)

Not all speed car have log books (although I dont do many of those events) but you are right some do and this records many things and also has pictures in it. But my understanding is that drivers dont really like them. There use in club racing may be limited and there would be a cost involved (getting the log book as well as having it checked by a scrutineer) and even though small I dont think club drivers will want to take it on.

R59 · 3 Aug 2006, 07:15 (Ref:1671803)

I seem to remember that when I raced in Super Road Saloons, in the dim and distant past, our championship membership card was our car's log book. A simple A5 sized card which allowed the scrutineer space to write notes.

Chris Roden · 3 Aug 2006, 08:15 (Ref:1671850)

It is my understanding that all non-road registered cars, competing in speed events, must have a log book....

AndyV · 3 Aug 2006, 10:36 (Ref:1671971)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Roden

It is my understanding that all non-road registered cars, competing in speed events, must have a log book....

Blue book says (am reading it avidly at the moment!)

"L 9.1.7. All cars competing in hill climbs or sprints must be presented for scrutineering with a valid MSA log book or an MSA recognised vehicle identity document unless the car is currently licensed for use on the public highway and is competing in the road legal condition or is currently used in circuit racing and is entered in an event on an occasional basis only"

Andy

phansa88 · 3 Aug 2006, 20:24 (Ref:1672500)

the fiesta i now race. i used for sprinting yes you have to have a msa log book but the scrutineers never asked for it . at the time it was about £25
to get one done.

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