Is Vettel's career over?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Some very interesting comments from Vettel in this article about his departure from Ferrari.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...n-vettel-split

His quotes are interesting, but IMHO, there is not enough to know for sure what he is thinking.

Trying to read between the lines, maybe Ferrari wasn't interested in renewing him to a long term contract (he is clearly on the backside of his career at Ferrari and that can't be fun for him). He may not care to drive for anyone but a top team, so he may see if any doors open (play the same game as Alonso... which is not working for Alonso) and if no doors open (is he looking beyond Mercedes and Red Bull?), just retire from F1.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

His quotes are interesting, but IMHO, there is not enough to know for sure what he is thinking.

Trying to read between the lines, maybe Ferrari wasn't interested in renewing him to a long term contract (he is clearly on the backside of his career at Ferrari and that can't be fun for him). He may not care to drive for anyone but a top team, so he may see if any doors open (play the same game as Alonso... which is not working for Alonso) and if no doors open (is he looking beyond Mercedes and Red Bull?), just retire from F1.

Richard

Well at this juncture, I would expect him to be playing it close to his chest and not give anything away.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

His quotes are interesting, but IMHO, there is not enough to know for sure what he is thinking.

Trying to read between the lines, maybe Ferrari wasn't interested in renewing him to a long term contract (he is clearly on the backside of his career at Ferrari and that can't be fun for him). He may not care to drive for anyone but a top team, so he may see if any doors open (play the same game as Alonso... which is not working for Alonso) and if no doors open (is he looking beyond Mercedes and Red Bull?), just retire from F1.

Richard

I think the headline - F1 future unclear - could also be written as 'unclear if he has a future in F1'?

Sebastian Vettel leaves Ferrari frustrated, but will he leave Formula 1?
'Should Vettel retire at the end of the year - and it seems a likely scenario in the apparent absence of any other competitive drives - his legacy will be a complex one.

Four world titles and 53 wins from 241 races are hugely impressive statistics that put him right up with the very greatest drivers ever to have competed in F1. Only Michael Schumacher and Lewis Hamilton have more wins. Only Juan Manuel Fangio in addition has more championships.

And yet, the questions will linger. Not over whether he was a great driver, but how great, and whether the statistics - which are never everything in F1 - flatter him to a degree.'

[Born Racer]

If Ferrari want a safe pair of hands as a number 2, what about Raikkonen, or could they even line up Giovinazzi for the job?

Ricciardo may have left Red Bull due to feeling it was Verstappen's team, but maybe he thinks he is the opportunity to stake more of an equal claim at the Scuderia. Of course, he beat Vettel over a season at Red Bull, so should at least be closer to Leclerc.

Personally, I would focus on someone more like Hulkenberg, Sainz or Ricciardo than Raikkonen or Giovinazzi. Raikkonen was usually not as quick as Vettel when they were team-mates and Giovinazzi has never impressed me much.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

If Ferrari want a safe pair of hands as a number 2, what about Raikkonen, or could they even line up Giovinazzi for the job?

Ricciardo may have left Red Bull due to feeling it was Verstappen's team, but maybe he thinks he is the opportunity to stake more of an equal claim at the Scuderia. Of course, he beat Vettel over a season at Red Bull, so should at least be closer to Leclerc.

A 3rd Ferrari stint for Raikkonen? Unlikely at best I'd have thought. Giovinazzi would in theory be the logical choice (Ferrari academy driver) but he was passed over once for LeClerc so clearly Ferrari aren't convinced he's got what it takes.

The other obvious choices are Ricciardo and Sainz - both have good speed, it's Ricciardo's best shot at a title (Renault looks to be a dead end, no Mercedes seat available and you can rule out a return to Red Bull) and surely he'd jump at the chance? Sainz was a match for Verstappen at Torro Rosso and could be signed to a long deal to give the team stability.

Leftfield options - Hulkenburg (finally a podium? ), Kvyat (he's been a Ferrari test driver and if he's driving a Ferrari it reduces the chances of him crashing into one by 50%

[Peter Mallett]

Even more leftfield - Hamilton. Mercedes may well be suffering from loss of business to the extent that their management may pull the plug on motorsport. That would leave Wolf to go with Stroll and Aston Martin whose business model appears to be much more attuned to the Red Bull "lifestyle" approach.

[bella]

don't think hamilton is a left field suggestion at all. but i think it'd be a bum steer for him and potentially finish off his f1 career like it has (potentially) done with vettel.

not sure leclerc needs a motivator at this point but i think ferrari would do well to bring someone in who works well with him to move the team forward.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I don't see Hamilton leaving Mercedes, not just yet. He's one WDC away from equaling Schumi's record and two away from equaling Schumi's 5 in a row, as well as becoming the driver to win the most WDCs ever and all of this driving a Mercedes. Also with the Covid-19 crisis and there's no telling how soon things will get back to "normal", would going to a new team be the right move?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

but i think ferrari would do well to bring someone in who works well with him to move the team forward.

Agree with this.

All good posts above. I tend to find the idea of Ricciardo or Sainz. I see Ferrari focusing on known quantity vs. trying to promote someone relatively new (such as Giovinazzi... at least not yet)

Again, reading between the lines, Ferrari wanted Vettle to remain for at least one more year. Right now is the worst timing for someone like Ferrari to try to sort out drivers. We have the global pandemic with 2020 totally up in the air and 2021 not really a given yet. Plus on top of that is the new regulations, and negotiations on cost cap values. With the underlying topic is the overall survival of F1 (at least in it's current form). This level of uncertainty is why I can agree with bella in that a safe option is what they might go for. And I also can imagine they may not do a long term contract with someone to keep their options open. I can see some current mid-field (but well respected) drivers willing to sign for short term contracts with Ferrari even with the prospect of being #2. Then again... a clear #2 (Giovinazzi?) might be what they want and then put all effort into their new #1?

Richard

[chillibowl]

2020, if it happens, was already not looking to be a competitive season for Ferrari and if there is an underlying issue with their 2020 car, which is now frozen for 2021 and possibly 2022, Ferrari are going to be struggling for a couple of seasons. and that doesn't even take into the account the likely meltdown/political infighting that will no doubt ensue at Maranello as each department shrinks and vies for funding under the new budget cap formula.

so a couple of things for me.

Vettel, who has something like over $500 mil in career earnings, has very little financial incentive to stay with Ferrari particularly if they are offering him short money and 2. while Ferrari may win a few races they probably wont be able to clinch a title for the next couple of seasons and even if they can their effort will be behind Leclerc winning it.

IMO, i think SV has made an inspired decisions to not take, what i presume was, a very lowball offer from Ferrari.

part of me thinks he will pull and Alonso and just leave F1 combined with the post covid reality but if he does stay, and given that his place in history is somewhat unsecured despite his titles, going to a team like Mclaren or Racing Point/Aston Martin would be a really compelling story.

a couple of podiums and/or even a win with one of those teams would go a long way in improving how he is remembered.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bella

not sure leclerc needs a motivator at this point but i think ferrari would do well to bring someone in who works well with him to move the team forward.

I agree. Leclerc, so far, has not had to bear all of the pressure of delivering for Ferrari. In fact, as long as Vettel has also been performing to a similar level, he's had a bit of a safety net from criticism.

Going forward, if someone was 'promoted' to the seat alongside him, Leclerc would be expected to lead the team and deliver a WDC. I feel he, and Ferrari, would benefit in the long term from having an experienced head in the garage who can mentor his development whilst not competing directly with him for results.

Hamilton does not fit that bill.
Would Räikkönen or Ricciardo be interested in mentoring a team mate?
Is Pérez experienced enough at the very top of F1?
Is Sainz Jr too similar in experience?
Would Alonso be willing to return in that capacity?
Is Massa still fit enough to be able to return?

2-3 years ago, I would have thought Massa would be the ideal candidate to mentor a driver in handling the pressures of being a Ferrari #1?

Or do Ferrari need to look outside of F1?
Kobayashi or Buemi (F1 experience and successful elsewhere)?
René Rast with Audi leaving DTM?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Even more leftfield - Hamilton. Mercedes may well be suffering from loss of business to the extent that their management may pull the plug on motorsport. That would leave Wolf to go with Stroll and Aston Martin whose business model appears to be much more attuned to the Red Bull "lifestyle" approach.

I wrote some time ago - before we had a pandemic to perturb things - that I considered a move by Hamilton to the red cars to be far too great a risk for both parties.

However, now that everything has been shaken up and there's no certainty as to which teams will still be around by the end of the year, that move looks slightly less risky and might appeal to Hamilton's innate sense of F1 history. To emulate Schumacher's 7 WDCs, in the same team... y'know, it might just work *but only* if they can categorically guarantee a car with a chance of winning. At the moment it just isn't there, and the team aren't anywhere near as slick as Mercedes are.

I really don't think they'd be able to contain him, either, for all their corporate junkets.

50/50 for me now. A year ago I'd have been 100% in the "yeah nah" camp!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

2020, if it happens, was already not looking to be a competitive season for Ferrari and if there is an underlying issue with their 2020 car, which is now frozen for 2021 and possibly 2022, Ferrari are going to be struggling for a couple of seasons. and that doesn't even take into the account the likely meltdown/political infighting that will no doubt ensue at Maranello as each department shrinks and vies for funding under the new budget cap formula.

so a couple of things for me.

Vettel, who has something like over $500 mil in career earnings, has very little financial incentive to stay with Ferrari particularly if they are offering him short money and 2. while Ferrari may win a few races they probably wont be able to clinch a title for the next couple of seasons and even if they can their effort will be behind Leclerc winning it.

IMO, i think SV has made an inspired decisions to not take, what i presume was, a very lowball offer from Ferrari.

part of me thinks he will pull and Alonso and just leave F1 combined with the post covid reality but if he does stay, and given that his place in history is somewhat unsecured despite his titles, going to a team like Mclaren or Racing Point/Aston Martin would be a really compelling story.

a couple of podiums and/or even a win with one of those teams would go a long way in improving how he is remembered.

In the Autosport article it says, Vettel stressed financial considerations played no part in the decision. I'm sure the short term contract and reduced salary didn't help. However, I think there was ongoing friction between himself and Ferrari. He goes onto say: "In order to get the best possible results in this sport, it's vital for all parties to work in perfect harmony. The team and I have realised that there is no longer a common desire to stay together beyond the end of this season". He's obviously not saying why there was no longer a common desire to stay together but then I don't expect him too just yet. He and Ferrari will let the dust settle on this decision for now, as there will be plenty of time for an explanation later and hopefully no recrimination.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He's obviously not saying why there was no longer a common desire to stay together but then I don't expect him too just yet. He and Ferrari will let the dust settle on this decision for now, as there will be plenty of time for an explanation later and hopefully no recrimination.

Maybe, because right now both he and Ferrari are unsure how many more times he will have to sit in the car and wear the red?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Maybe, because right now both he and Ferrari are unsure how many more times he will have to sit in the car and wear the red?

That will have something to do with it.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That will have something to do with it.

So we need the season written off, or completed, before we get the truth....

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

In the Autosport article it says, Vettel stressed financial considerations played no part in the decision. I'm sure the short term contract and reduced salary didn't help.

I suspect a reduction in salary was salt in the wound, but like you, I think the short contract duration was the sticking/breaking point. And the short duration is likely an indication of a significant (but not total) loss of faith in him by Ferrari. He is no longer the future for them. That was the message. Or to put a positive spin, Ferrari was saying "prove" why you are the future. Here is a one year contract. Bring results to the table for 2022 contract negotiations. He probably wasn't OK with that arrangement.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So we need the season written off, or completed, before we get the truth....

Possibly but the truth according to Vettel, or the truth according to Ferrari? Hopefully that won't happen and recrimination won't rear its ugly head.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Possibly but the truth according to Vettel, or the truth according to Ferrari? Hopefully that won't happen and recrimination won't rear its ugly head.

Depends if there are books to sell, or financial backers to appease?

[Akrapovic]

Surprised people are saying Ferrari need someone with a safe pair of hands, or someone to work with Leclerc.

Teams that should be winning titles should not be hiring "safe pairs of hands". You need people who will actually go and win titles.

Leclerc is looking like a future star - but we've had a lot of future stars who never became stars. Ferrari need someone who will properly drag them into titles. Alonso and Vettel both failed. Arguably Kimi only got his title due to a McLaren meltdown of epic proportions. We're back to pre-Schumacher Ferrari. As good as Leclerc is looking, he is not yet ready to do that alone. Bringing in someone who works well with him doesn't really make a huge amount of sense to me.

[Greem]

Interesting point, that.

Pre-Schumacher - or more accurately pre Schumacher, Brawn, Today & Byrne - Ferrari was a hotbed of internal politics.

Then it wasn't for a while where they had an absolute, clear #1 and #2 relationship however they tried to hide it.

Then that group departed & we're back to apparently no defined #1, or a #2 so good that they started playing politics again.

No good will come of it!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Surprised people are saying Ferrari need someone with a safe pair of hands, or someone to work with Leclerc.

Teams that should be winning titles should not be hiring "safe pairs of hands". You need people who will actually go and win titles.

"Because Ferrari"

I think even the teams that are extremely well run struggle when they have two drivers who are fighting each other just as much as they are fighting other teams. (Hamilton/Rosberg; Vettel/(insert various teammates here) - multi21)

Ferrari doesn't need that drama. They either need two top drivers who will get along well and not create too much drama (a rarity such as Hamilton/Button, Button/Alonso) or one top driver who fights for driver championship and someone who is very good, but a clear #2 and helps bring home the constructor championship. (Hamilton/Bottas)

Richard

[S griffin]

Ferrari will be keen to get back up there. They need to find the right driver. The problem with Hamilton/Rosberg was Hamilton could be tough at times, while Vettel has mental fragility and needs the right enviroment

I’m sure they find the right driver to get on with Leclerc, sometimes you need that bonding, as you point out Button got on with almost everyone he teamed with. They need two drivers to lead the team forward. Mercedes could go either way with it’s drivers this season though

[Lancsbreaker]

Reading his comments in the quoted interviews, it sounds very much like he's been "considering his future" during the enforced lay-off, and decided he's had enough....


I really can't see him going to a non-competitive team.

[LW97]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Webber to Renault surely?

No, Coulthard