[Team] 2020 Season Launch/Pre-Season Testing

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Casper

That the supposed pinnacle of motor racing might ban this innovation makes me sad. There is now no possibility of F1 engineers being allowed to innovate at all so why bother. In fact F1 is a dead end as far as innovation is concerned nowadays where it used to pride itself on new ideas that the teams came up with. Did someone say a spec racing series??

The flip side of this is that if things weren't banned then the cars would cost a billion dollars and the drivers would pass out from the G-Forces.

[S griffin]

You only need to look at the Group B rally days to see why the technical regulations have restrictions. If you give them free reign, they'll eventually drive the car that even the best can't handle

[BertMk2]

Ferrari have had an engine failure on Vettels car - cause unknown at the moment (engine is being shipped back to Maranello). So far the red flags have been for Ferrari powered cars only I think? Raikkonen yesterday and Vettel today.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Ferrari have had an engine failure on Vettels car - cause unknown at the moment (engine is being shipped back to Maranello). So far the red flags have been for Ferrari powered cars only I think? Raikkonen yesterday and Vettel today.

You speak too soon..... Latifi has just stopped on track in the Williams, bringing out the reds. It lost all drive apparently.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230811201778733056

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The flip side of this is that if things weren't banned then the cars would cost a billion dollars and the drivers would pass out from the G-Forces.

So F1 just bans all innovation? What a sad commentary on the pinnacle of motor sport. I designed a component in karting that is now sold world wide but in F1 it would have been banned because it was innovative and different.

Who says this costs more than a conventional rack anyway? BTW I would stake some money on it not being a rack and pinion at all and everyone is barking up the wrong tree.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Also, Mercedes claims they have kept the FIA technical team in the loop as to the system. So it should not be a surprise to anyone other than the other teams. Now, the question is how loud might they complain. But it appears to be legal.

My guess, it will remain for this season. Potentially go away in 2021.

Richard

A deal was done? This is (apparently) in the regs for next year......

10.5.2 The re-alignment of the steered wheels, as defined by the position of the inboard attachment of the relevant suspensions members that remain a fixed distance from each other, must be uniquely defined by a monotonic function of the rotational position of a single steering wheel

From the 2021 tech regs.

So it would seems that MB have been given a year but then it is verbotten.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Casper

So it would seems that MB have been given a year but then it is verbotten.

You missed the obvious gag: "DAS ist verboten"

I'll get me coat...

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Casper

So F1 just bans all innovation?

No. Nobody said that.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Casper

A deal was done? This is (apparently) in the regs for next year......

10.5.2 The re-alignment of the steered wheels, as defined by the position of the inboard attachment of the relevant suspensions members that remain a fixed distance from each other, must be uniquely defined by a monotonic function of the rotational position of a single steering wheel

From the 2021 tech regs.

So it would seems that MB have been given a year but then it is verbotten.

Very interesting!

Richard

[Richard C]

Media also reporting DAS will be illegal in 2021

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/d...1-fia/4690176/

I tend to believe the thought that they were in the loop regarding the Mercedes solution and felt the best course was to allow for 2020, but outlaw for 2021. Given the 2021 regulations have been out there for awhile and teams will have been examining them to look for gaps, I can imagine they should have also been looking for new exclusions (for 2021) that may indicate new concepts still valid in 2020.

In short, teams could have looked at 2021 regulations and seen the potential for DAS in 2020. But that linkage may only be obvious now in hindsight.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Media also reporting DAS will be illegal in 2021

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/d...1-fia/4690176/

I tend to believe the thought that they were in the loop regarding the Mercedes solution and felt the best course was to allow for 2020, but outlaw for 2021. Given the 2021 regulations have been out there for awhile and teams will have been examining them to look for gaps, I can imagine they should have also been looking for new exclusions (for 2021) that may indicate new concepts still valid in 2020.

In short, teams could have looked at 2021 regulations and seen the potential for DAS in 2020. But that linkage may only be obvious now in hindsight.

Richard

According to this, the FIA have said it is fully satisfied the Mercedes DAS system is safe.

https://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/148368

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

According to this, the FIA have said it is fully satisfied the Mercedes DAS system is safe.

https://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/148368

As the discussion here quickly went to "use the safety requirement to ban this", I expect Mercedes knew that would be a talking point and addressed this with the FIA in advance.

My thoughts on this...

1. Interesting concept. I like the creativity.

2. Old school mechanical solution to get around the rules. And because of that, it's a solution I don't particularly like. It is elegant, but also quite crude at the same time. If this was to remain (which it's not due to 2021 rules), I would have preferred a better option be given to the teams.

3. I hate that this may give an already dominate team another leg up. However, I wonder how much extra this helps. Mercedes probably is just that much better even without this.

4. In the end, I am fine with it staying. This area in the rules that allowed this is probably quite mature. So anyone could have found this if they looked. This is NOT something that was generated by throwing money at a problem (such as iterative aero development via CFD, tunnel refinement, etc.). This was a bright idea that woke someone up in the middle of the night. A true "ah-ha" moment. So kudos to whoever for figuring it out.

Richard

[Alan52]

The last team on the grid that needs a unique technical advantage.If it is significant tune out for 2020 and hope the new regulations take away the Mercedes advantage.

[crmalcolm]

And if it is a big advantage, then all team resources can be focused on 2021 while everyone else is trying to play catch up.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Alan52

The last team on the grid that needs a unique technical advantage.If it is significant tune out for 2020 and hope the new regulations take away the Mercedes advantage.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

And if it is a big advantage, then all team resources can be focused on 2021 while everyone else is trying to play catch up.

If I understand correctly, I think you both are saying the same thing? "If" it's a big advantage, then Mercedes crushes in 2020 and EVERYONE (including Mercedes) just focuses on 2021 because 2020 is lost?

Mid-field had no chance against Mercedes anyhow. They may try to copy it to just battle with other mid-field players. Real question is for Red Bull and Ferrari. What will they do?

Personally, I see what it does, but I doubt it's a game changer. And I even wonder if we will know either way. Mercedes was already pretty dominant. Lets say they are again in 2020. Was it because of this, or because of any number of other things they have continued to optimize while everyone else plays catch-up?

Richard

[crmalcolm]

If Mercedes have 2020 in the bag, would Ferrari settle for third and let Red Bull have 2nd place?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Personally, I see what it does,
Richard

You had better give blokes like Gary Anderson a call because he has no idea at all. He should or now might be embarrassed at his explanation which is a good example of a knee jerk response to what I think was a interview just to get some video out.

The F1 media are a shambles as shown in the last few days. I wouldn't be surprised that MB have had this in the car for a long time and never fully utilised it or at least used it at odd times without demonstrating its full capability.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Casper

You had better give blokes like Gary Anderson a call because he has no idea at all. He should or now might be embarrassed at his explanation which is a good example of a knee jerk response to what I think was a interview just to get some video out.

The F1 media are a shambles as shown in the last few days. I wouldn't be surprised that MB have had this in the car for a long time and never fully utilised it or at least used it at odd times without demonstrating its full capability.

I can't speak to Gary Anderson's analysis. I think what is going on is that the technical pundits are trying to explain "how" it works and maybe getting that wrong. I will not venture into "how" beyond the existing speculation. Only Mercedes and FIA probably know for sure the exact specifics.

But I think what it is trying to do is pretty clear. Its trying to switch toe settings between two scenarios (straight line and cornering.) Previously you would have a single setup that would be a compromise (good in some ways, bad in others).

People have gone back and have been closely looking at prior in-car video from the past few years to see if they have missed something. People are looking for odd wheel and steering wheel movement. Some have said they see something, but I (and probably most others) think they are seeing ghosts because I can't see it. I think this is new, or as you say, was never used to this degree.

Richard

[Casper]

It's pretty simple, tyre scrub in a straight line causes speed loss, excessive use of fuel, lower top speed and tyre degradation on the small contact patch that the camber angle creates. Pull the toe out of it be that toe in or toe out and get the wheels straight ahead and those problems go away. Arriving at the braking zone you need toe out for stability and then after braking it makes the car turn in better and is an aid to better braking. There are thick books written on this stuff and I could write a lot more but eyes would glaze over and aspirin would be needed. The temperature gradient across the tyre might be a bit better but nowhere as good as they would like because they can't change the camber.

The temp gradient presents problems in the corner following a long straight because when the car turns in the camber changes to increase the tyre contact patch and the outside of the tyre is colder than the inside and the turn in is slightly delayed. In a lesser car that delay would not be noticed but because an F1 car is within the turn in period for such a short time it is obviously an issue.

[peebee2]

You realise that camber and toe-in/out aren’t the same thing?

[peebee2]

Wouldn’t surprise me if it turned out this was all a smokescreen to keep all the other teams very busy until Melbourne, when some other tech secret is revealed.

[S griffin]

Merc must have done something right if they have left everyone else confused by this system.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by peebee2

You realise that camber and toe-in/out aren’t the same thing?

Yep, about 50 years ago, when did you work it out?

[Alan52]

Question to which I do not know the answer.Are teams allowed to change camber/toe-in once the car enters Parc ferme?If not it shouldn’t make any difference whether the change is done by the driver or the mechanics.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Question to which I do not know the answer.Are teams allowed to change camber/toe-in once the car enters Parc ferme?If not it shouldn’t make any difference whether the change is done by the driver or the mechanics.

I think the point is that toe is continually changing with the rotation of the steering wheel and Ackerman system. Mercedes have introduced a further change to the toe through for/aft movement of the steering wheel.