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Old 16 Mar 2019, 20:03 (Ref:3891127)   #6401
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Originally Posted by carbsmith View Post
Considering hybrid is not mandatory in any sense now that the class is using BoP for non-hybrid road cars anyways, apparently not.
I think that the takeaway is that the ACO/WEC didn't find anywhere near enough takers for their previous definition(s) of hypercars. So what gets sacrificed now in the name of attracting more manufacturer interest (and money) are hybrids and lap time.

The problem is that this really creates a lot of other issues for the ACO.

Are prototypes as we've known them dead at Le Mans?

What happens to GTE? The appeal to justify factory GTE GTE-Pro teams has been exactly that they are the top GT cars in the series at Le Mans. Road-car based hypercars changes that. It gets harder to justify a GTE-Pro program in the hypercar era.

Speaking of which, are Aston Martin and Ferrari really going to run (for long) two factory programs in the WEC, one hypercar and one in GTE-Pro?

Remember those DP and LMP2 BOP issues in IMSA? Expect that in spades for the ACO/WEC.

LMP2s get slowed down a lot. Also, all this thrashing around to get more hypercar car manufacturers for the ACO/WEC and top-class Le Mans entries sends a horrible message to ELMS teams -- the ACO is trying really hard to make sure that mid-field ELMS LMP2 and GTE-Am don't get invited to the big race.

Bonus thought: I wonder how long it is before the quest to reduce costs gets back to cutting the number and/or length of WEC races.
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Old 16 Mar 2019, 20:37 (Ref:3891138)   #6402
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Not that I disagree with much of this (and accepting the naivety of the sentiment), are race results determined by driver skill such a bad idea? Isn't that actually how it should be?
Not really, no. That pretty much runs entirely counter to the concept of endurance racing. In general it's ridiculous to think that in professional racing with dozens if not hundreds of people involved in racing a single car that only one person's efforts should actually matter. It's called motorsport, not competitive driving. Otherwise every race in the world would be running identical 125 shifter karts.
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Old 17 Mar 2019, 02:53 (Ref:3891237)   #6403
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I'm kinda new so please correct me if I'm wrong about something, you guys are quite knowledgeable about this stuff. But...

I've been reading up on this and a few weeks ago I was carefully reading the proposal for the 2020 regulations, and I kind of liked it. Sure, big compromise compared to what we have now but certainly some interesting things. GTP-looking cars with powerful (and freely designed!) engines and a beefy hybrid system sounded pretty good to me. I also liked the fact that road derived engines and ERS would be allowed under certain conditions. If Toyota and one or two other manufacturers would have signed up for that I would have been quite happy!


But now it seems that's all out of the window, in favor of... what exactly? Reading the above it seems like the ACO just got tired of negotiating and are just going for numbers only. They want 5 manufacturers on the grid and don't care what they bring, they'll 'just BoP it'. If that comes to pass I will be very, very disappointed I may even lose interest in Le Mans completely. BoP ruins it for me, I know lots of people enjoy it but I don't. I could explain why but I've rambled on way too long already!
I hope not. Just bring whatever and let the aco/fia balance it is ridiculous and a farce imo. What's the point of regulations if that's the case? I don't believe they'll go that far but hopefully there's some good news in all of this. I think if there's regulations on weight dimensions power output and a soft limit on the aero efficiency numbers then that could work. But bop? I thought success ballast was pretty far out there, bop is even further.
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Old 17 Mar 2019, 09:54 (Ref:3891300)   #6404
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Kind of funny because they've had "run what you brung and we'll balance it" before, but that was before anyone entertained the notion of regulating individual cars separately. Mind you it gave us some of the most memorable rule controversies as well...

Le Mans 1994 had Group C, LMP1, LMP2, GT1, and GTS all in the top 10 qualifiers, and it sure is something seeing Group C Courages and Toyotas, an open top Kremer, road legal 962s, a single seat WR, and a big old tube frame 300ZX all blasting off down to the Dunlop esses together. Of course Toyota Motorsport remembers the Dauer 962 minmaxing just fine, that's why they're ready to build both a prototype and GT car. You think going from 3:17 to 3:30 in the race is bad, the pole time went from 3:25 to 3:51 in one year and the C90 cars had about 20 seconds knocked off of them from when they were still unrestricted.

That itself is a bit different than the 70s and early 80s attitude of just being able to show up with seemingly whatever period and balance being a happy coincidence of similar technology.
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Old 17 Mar 2019, 11:07 (Ref:3891305)   #6405
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I'm finding it very hard to sustain interest in the new regulations. The idea appears to be "fluid" and change constantly, and the idea of what it's changing to started off a bit poor and got worse.
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Old 17 Mar 2019, 15:01 (Ref:3891331)   #6406
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Yes...

I'd love to hear Glickenhaus (Napolis) views on these... updates
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Old 17 Mar 2019, 16:31 (Ref:3891347)   #6407
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Yes...

I'd love to hear Glickenhaus (Napolis) views on these... updates
We are very happy. This will allow us to race a version of our Glickenhaus 007 LM Road Legal Hyper that will be very close to our road version 900 HP ICE RWD/250 KERS FWD.
This will reduce costs as our Race Version will no longer have to
have a race developed ICE (V6 vs V8) as our 003 C did. Our 2020
004 GT 3 and GT4 will also have a V8 derived from our road legal
examples.
We think fans, sponsors and manufacturers will like thes changes as well.
Best
Jim
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Old 17 Mar 2019, 19:51 (Ref:3891410)   #6408
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I don't think much has changed except now there's bop involved and more cars allowed. What's bad for us fans is that we didn't want more bop or slower, clumsier looking cars that are hard to distinguish from GTE. If they're actual hypercars, they need to look the part. Low and wide, slimmer cockpit than GT and sportscars. Like late 90s GT1 except more modern.

Now it seems what were going to get is a hodgepodge of semi-prototypes and faster GTE looking types of cars. A series like the wec should be above this mix and match top class.
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Old 17 Mar 2019, 21:58 (Ref:3891432)   #6409
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Excuse me, but those who watch racing because of constructors' competition, - what they should do? Since its creation motor racing had always been a playing ground for different experiments, brilliant ideas and clever reading of the Technical regulations. Maybe some had "unfair advantage", but it was the Nature law. It was a real Life. Why nobody wants to save at least a tiny bit of constructors' championship - there're already tons of mono classes to watch (if anybody still believe that there's any form of tech equality there).
I've written it so many times, but, FIA have destroyed sportscar (and formulae) racing by eliminating a natural constructors' ladder throughout different classes. New breed of engineers have nowhere to go to test their ideas. It's no wonder that WEC had to drop constructions' battles and use BoP - they just do not have enough engineers to work in a competitive, real world; so they need some "greenhouse" conditions only to please marketing departments. And I should say advertising people were much clever some 20-30 years ago, as, for example Ford Sierra still associated with racing breed. Even Volvo (from ETCC) does as they compete with BMW and Jaguars in the same open world conditions. Do anybody believe that Hyundai ever get the same advertising with that BoP thing? And who will BoP their road going cars? Hyundai is better than Alfa or Subaru? No way. They do not have something special, that was generated by these companies in real racing, not in "greenhouse" conditions.

As for WEC, it's impossible to force everybody to be the same. When people can not receive advantages through bright mind and hard working, then it looks like a certain regime. It looks like FIA are narrow minded communists.
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Old 17 Mar 2019, 22:45 (Ref:3891444)   #6410
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Well for the constructors it should be equal but fair. I don’t agree with BoP to level the playing field. All cars should be different. That’s what the designers and engineers are for. Back in the day cars were more production based, like the Sierra, nothing more than a glorified road car and there were others like the Volvo and Jaguar too, which added to the competition at the time. I think manufacturers like Hyundai see something in the BoP, even if it is not ideal for them

Sadly the WEC is sadly flawed in this respect. It’s not quite the leading sportscar series
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Old 18 Mar 2019, 11:39 (Ref:3891554)   #6411
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Sadly the WEC is sadly flawed in this respect. It’s not quite the leading sportscar series
Well however you measure it, it was the last sportscar series & 24 hour race featuring lead class that wasn't based on BoP and/or specness... but now that'll be gone.

With P1 and P2 no longer having technical and engineering competition left, by late 2020 the only category with real tech incentive will be F1... zzz. And I don't know, maybe CN. Well, until Zero Emission is launched in 2024 anyway, but god knows if that too will implement BoP nonsense now that the line has been crossed
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Old 18 Mar 2019, 19:54 (Ref:3891648)   #6412
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It was nice it had something different, but now that has been brought in line with everything else

There’s little point anymore constructors getting involved in LMP classes if they can’t show their skills off. Thankfully F1 will always have technical innovation, which is how it should be. Don’t know what other series there will be. But I think too many series are going down the BoP route to keep in line with the future
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Old 20 Mar 2019, 03:03 (Ref:3891994)   #6413
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I don't think all is lost. I am hoping that this bop talk is not tinkering with the cars individually but close to the eot currently used. I hope, that's not saying this is what I expect. I expect the worst but hope to be surprised. If anything there should be variety at least.
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Old 20 Mar 2019, 07:07 (Ref:3892024)   #6414
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I am hoping that this bop talk is not tinkering with the cars individually but close to the eot currently used.
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...o-and-wec.html

There was a clear acknowledgment that the challenges of balancing such disparate packages require Balance of Performance and NOT Equivalence of Technology
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Old 20 Mar 2019, 11:30 (Ref:3892079)   #6415
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Well if they think BoP works, then I guess it does. I think EoT would have been better
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Old 20 Mar 2019, 12:53 (Ref:3892117)   #6416
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It doesn't have to work just because they think it will

(Mind you, I don't think they really care as long as the lobbying manufacturers are happy)
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Old 20 Mar 2019, 15:47 (Ref:3892171)   #6417
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(Mind you, I don't think they really care as long as the lobbying manufacturers are happy)
The extent to which the ACO is acceding to manufacturer demands is a little demeaning, in my view. As they have themselves seen, manufacturers come and go. It's the races, Le Mans in particular, which endure.

The one area of factory involvement which is thriving is GTE. So let that be the manufacturer playground. Customer LMP1 and LMP2 racing can fill the prototype field (including prototypes built by big car makers and sold to customer teams if they want to do so).

That won't happen, of course, because ACO/FIA believe that their series has no value without major manufacturers in the top class.
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Old 20 Mar 2019, 17:17 (Ref:3892206)   #6418
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Well they see manufacturers as belonging in their series. But how many will stay? How many see it is still sustainable?

Even GTE it’s no guarantee. Maybe they should look more to ELMS for prototypes, that seems to work
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Old 20 Mar 2019, 19:38 (Ref:3892266)   #6419
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That won't happen, of course, because ACO/FIA believe that their series has no value without major manufacturers in the top class.
I happen to agree with that. GTE is not very interesting to me, and I'm losing more interest in the top class every time news about it comes out
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Old 20 Mar 2019, 20:43 (Ref:3892282)   #6420
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I see your point. They can’t rely on GTE and LMP1 isn’t all it’s cracked up to be
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Old 20 Mar 2019, 22:21 (Ref:3892311)   #6421
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It does make you wonder. What does the ACO see as more important, the GTE or the LMP1? I’m not so sure if it’s either that matters
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Old 21 Mar 2019, 02:07 (Ref:3892353)   #6422
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It does make you wonder. What does the ACO see as more important, the GTE or the LMP1? I’m not so sure if it’s either that matters
So lmp2 matters? I'm not sure I can follow the reasoning with your recent posts.
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Old 21 Mar 2019, 05:34 (Ref:3892369)   #6423
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It's obvious to anyone that the top class is the top class for a reason. They need the top class to actually be... top! I don't like bop. I don't like mismatch looking cars. It bothers me seeing Ferrari's Corvettes Porsches and the like racing against a big BMW sedan that has two doors cut off. Its going to be worse imo if we see smooth looking, purposely built machines that look like the Valkyrie vs something that looks like a modified (and uglier) McLaren 720 in the 'Senna' as they call it. Imo that's an insult. It's a 720s with a goofy body kit and oversized rear wing. At least the Vakyrie looks like an lmp for the road like the Toyota GR Super Sport or this thing, the Aspark Owl



I have a feeling we're going to be seeing all types of weird things and the only way to distinguish some of them from a GTE is it'll have a little fin on the back, yuck.
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Old 21 Mar 2019, 08:25 (Ref:3892395)   #6424
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Well it's not quite what it should be the top class. Le Mans has let itself go a bit. Certainly the GT class is exciting in it's own way, although whether the manufacturers stay is another question. Obviously the organisers feel the new hypercars is the only way forward. We'll see how well these types of cars do, they ain't the best things around. Certainly I have seen more racer looking cars than those. What can you do though? It's a different game now
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Old 21 Mar 2019, 20:56 (Ref:3892535)   #6425
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So I'm guessing that this set of regs probably won't fix the whole we hope that they stop designing cars that make us want to say to them and their designers "why don't you go down to the nursery and scare the newborn babies".

I agree with TF110 and S griffin that the ACO lost their way. I'll also add that it's kinda their fault. IMO, they got so used to the Audi Sport/VAG dollars and them supporting LM and related series like the ALMS and the WEC for so long that they in my honest opinion just got a bit greedy, or lazy, or both.

It's like in the lyrics to the Aerosmith song Dream On:

"Sing with me, if just for today. Maybe tomorrow, the good lord will take you away."

Yeah, the ACO are right in appreciating what they had yesterday, but they didn't plan for today, and now it seems that they don't know what they want for tomorrow.
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