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Old 18 Jun 2019, 18:46 (Ref:3912725)   #1
Mike Bell
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Restart procedure after Safety Car period.

OK, not only in histerics, but not long ago there were two distinct procedures adopted by different organisers.

The first dictated that when the SC lights went off and it pulled off the circuit, green flags would be shown at all Marshals post, competitors could immediately start racing, and if possible, overtake, wherever they were on the track at the time.

The alternative dictated that green flags would be shown at all Marshals posts, as above, BUT cars had to hold position, and not overtake, until passing the start line.

It seems now that most historic organisers have settled on the latter approach, but why? First- It can be very unfair, here’s an example from Dijon recently. The slowest car in the race can only manage 138kph on the straights, the next slowest just over 160kph, your car 210-230kph or higher. You’re behind, and have just passed the start line when green flags are waved. So you have almost a lap following before you can overtake a car that laps 20 seconds slower. Meanwhile, the cars you were chasing have disappeared..... I know that in a perfect world, all the competing cars would be line astern behind the SC, but in reality that is seldom the case. What happens on many occasions is that the odd individual ignores the rule, overtakes one or several cars, but is not penalised. Surely if everyone was allowed to overtake, that scenario would be eliminated?

At the race meeting in the above example, one competitor took it upon themselves to ask the CoC the reasons behind the ‘no overtaking until’ rule, but he wasn’t able to give one!

Anyone have an answer as to why the procedure was adopted?
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 19:27 (Ref:3912733)   #2
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Assuming you're talking about a single SC procedure, not several SC's, you mean you're not allowed to take over after the start/finish line when green flags are waved and the SC is parked? I'm surprised because this case is clearly explained during the briefing. My understanding is that you can overtake.
Why this procedure is adopted, can't answer.
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 21:38 (Ref:3912756)   #3
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Colin McKay should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridColin McKay should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Are you sure you'e got that right Mike? In the example you gave, cars behind you that cross the line after the green flags go out would be allowed to overtake you, but you can't retaliate. Or am I missing something?
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 21:56 (Ref:3912759)   #4
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one-two should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Mike, I think the scenario you describe can only happen if, for some reason, the field is very spread out. If I understand it, the safety car is coming in when you are still the best part of a lap behind it? The solution is surely a tighter formation behind the safety car - maybe it needs to go slower or be out for longer to achieve that
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 21:59 (Ref:3912760)   #5
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grantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Last weekend I observed a car at the rear of the field (but for one who was recovering from a spin or something) circulating at about the same speed as the safety car and seemingly keeping the track safe rather than attempting to catch the end of the snake.

I decided that the X plate indicate bother an inexperienced and not up to speed driver and perhaps an unfamiliarity with the way things were meant to work and what was acceptable.

However when the SC period ended his speed remained the same and I realised it was about the same as had been achieved before the SC. So he may well have been trying to catch up but was unable to do so within his comfort zone.

Not good news for the chap behind him. They must have been about 3/4 of a lap behind.

There has to be a way of making allowances for this sort of situation and to cover Mike's concerns as well. (Assuming that the managed speed limit solution (Code 60?) does not provide the solution which it may not for many reasons.)
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 22:02 (Ref:3912761)   #6
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I think that's the point - the SC effectively has to go at a speed that everyone can exceed or the grid won't close up behind it. I can see that could be tricky in situations with big speed differentials
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 22:25 (Ref:3912762)   #7
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grantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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I think that's the point - the SC effectively has to go at a speed that everyone can exceed or the grid won't close up behind it. I can see that could be tricky in situations with big speed differentials

Assuming they know they are expected to close up and that it is OK to try to do so.

Huge compromises on all aspects (not the least for the marshals) no matter what one does.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 05:44 (Ref:3912792)   #8
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Just to clarify, this is from one organiser's regs…

12.3.4 – All competing cars will form up in line behind the Safety Car no more than 5 cars lengths apart. Any overtaking on the track is forbidden, unless a car is signalled to do so by the Safety Car.
12.5.2 – When the Clerk of the course calls in the Safety Car, the latter will extinguish its lights. This will be the signal to the drivers that it will leave the track to the pit lane at the end of that lap. At this point the first car in line behind the Safety Car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, leave more than 5 cars lengths behind the following car. As the Safety Car is approaching the pit lane, the yellow flags and the "SC" boards at the Marshals posts will be withdrawn and waving green flags will be displayed for no more than one lap.
12.5.3 – Overtaking is strictly prohibited until the cars go through the green lights/flags located on the timekeeping line.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 05:56 (Ref:3912795)   #9
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I know how I feel, after a SC period at Spa I was held up behind a car that was actually lapping 30 seconds slower than the safety car and the race was completely "sodded up" as I lost the guys that I was racing with. I would have though that in a case like this the marshals should have been instructed to wave us by ?
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 06:04 (Ref:3912796)   #10
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Originally Posted by Colin McKay View Post
Are you sure you'e got that right Mike? In the example you gave, cars behind you that cross the line after the green flags go out would be allowed to overtake you, but you can't retaliate. Or am I missing something?
Correct Colin, That could happen.

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Originally Posted by one-two View Post
Mike, I think the scenario you describe can only happen if, for some reason, the field is very spread out. If I understand it, the safety car is coming in when you are still the best part of a lap behind it? The solution is surely a tighter formation behind the safety car - maybe it needs to go slower or be out for longer to achieve that

Often as not, the field will be spread out, however hard race control try to control it, but no-one wants the SC to be out any longer than absolutely necessary. For example, a car stops in a dangerous spot with a mechanical issue. The SC is deployed, but the car fires up again and continues. You can't leave the SC out for several laps with a 60 car field until there is a train. For more than one reason, some cars / drivers do not catch up the train. We had a situation couple of years back where the whole of the pitwall, including marshals, were frantically trying to get one driver to go quicker, as the SC was catching them up.....

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Originally Posted by one-two View Post
I think that's the point - the SC effectively has to go at a speed that everyone can exceed or the grid won't close up behind it. I can see that could be tricky in situations with big speed differentials
The issue is more likely in a grid where there are big lap time differences. In a one make grid it shouldn't be such a problem.

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Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER View Post
I know how I feel, after a SC period at Spa I was held up behind a car that was actually lapping 30 seconds slower than the safety car and the race was completely "sodded up" as I lost the guys that I was racing with. I would have though that in a case like this the marshals should have been instructed to wave us by ?

Yes. Despite the regulation in my last post stating overtaking 'strictly prohibited', if a car is lapping slowly due to a problem, it is normally acceptable for the driver to wave other cars past, but the marshals are not really in a position to make that decision?


I'm still looking for any reason why the regulation was adopted, rether than the alternative of racing to start as soon as green flags are waved!
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 08:15 (Ref:3912819)   #11
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too many SCs in this country, period. Far prefer FCY or Code 60.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 08:43 (Ref:3912822)   #12
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What is clear is that for one question we have several interpretations!
I'm with MG David FCY is a good thing as seen at Le Mans last week. We need well trained marshals and its a must to respect them. I've been working on that a long while ago, marshaling is not a piece of cake.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 08:57 (Ref:3912825)   #13
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Agreed, and not just UK, but doesn’t answer my question!

As a matter of interest, with FCY you are racing again, and can overtake, as soon as the flags are withdrawn / swapped for green? If that’s the case, why not at the end of a SC period?
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 09:20 (Ref:3912828)   #14
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I know I'm thick, but my understanding is that you're allowed to race again when the green flags are waved after crossing the start/finish line. And no, this doesn't answer you question. And yes, your unanswered question brings others!
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 09:22 (Ref:3912829)   #15
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May be you just experienced a lack of mutual understanding at Dijon? On the other french tracks you're allowed to drive with two wheels on the herbs. Explained during the briefing. Do it twice in a row at Dijon and you'll be warned for track limits.
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