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Old 28 May 2020, 12:39 (Ref:3978910)   #151
DS"
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Here's another thought of mine:


Why doesn't the ITR double down on their idea of a world championship? I remember when the WTCR was launched, it was only supposed to be run for two or three years. Then, a new WTCC with Class One regulations was supposed to launch. There were some rumours that Mercedes and Hans-Werner Aufrecht were involved with it - HWA in particular as revenge, as he was replaced by Gerhard Berger as the head of the ITR. Berger himself also debunked those rumours, stating that he wasn't cooperating with the FIA in that matter.

But what do we have now? DTM is close to dying, no one besides BMW and perhaps the remaining Audi teams are interested in racing in Germany or Central Europe. At the same time, WTCR isn't doing well either. Now it's still more expensive to run Class One cars all over the world than TCR. But if the ITR and FIA can come up with a) a reasonable cost-plan for a class one series and b) a reasonable long-term plan to go Hybrid and eventually all-electric, maybe some manufacturers will bite. Volvo was close to entering DTM in the mid-10's, but decided against it, because they were still running naturally aspirated V8s back then. Maybe they're willing to enter a world championship that will align with their brand vision in the long term.

Honda could be another candidate. While they ruled out any other form of racing besides Formula One and Super GT for now, a WTCC, where they could run the same cars as in Super GT, could be interesting for them as well? Maybe even Audi could be convinced to stay with class one, if it means contesting for a world championship.

A world championship with BMW, Honda, Volvo, maybe Audi, maybe even those Aston Martins, may not save DTM, but could save class one racing? If anyone could talk to Jean Todt about it, it's Gerhard Berger. Maybe he has already talked to him, who knows.
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Old 28 May 2020, 12:53 (Ref:3978918)   #152
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Well, the idea seems quite good and actually could fill the place that is now taken by ill DTM and WTCR championships. Let's be honest, DTM seems a great product but is too expensive, especially for 'only German' championship, while WTCR is cheap but no one is excited about it (well, okay, I don't know that but even on this forum it's visible it's not particularly popular). Combining DTM's product (enhanced and made cheaper) with WTCR global reach seems a fantastic idea. The big question is - could there be any interest in it in these, difficult times?
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Old 28 May 2020, 13:17 (Ref:3978920)   #153
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Old 28 May 2020, 14:48 (Ref:3978943)   #154
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Originally Posted by DS" View Post
Here's another thought of mine:


Why doesn't the ITR double down on their idea of a world championship? I remember when the WTCR was launched, it was only supposed to be run for two or three years. Then, a new WTCC with Class One regulations was supposed to launch. There were some rumours that Mercedes and Hans-Werner Aufrecht were involved with it - HWA in particular as revenge, as he was replaced by Gerhard Berger as the head of the ITR. Berger himself also debunked those rumours, stating that he wasn't cooperating with the FIA in that matter.

But what do we have now? DTM is close to dying, no one besides BMW and perhaps the remaining Audi teams are interested in racing in Germany or Central Europe. At the same time, WTCR isn't doing well either. Now it's still more expensive to run Class One cars all over the world than TCR. But if the ITR and FIA can come up with a) a reasonable cost-plan for a class one series and b) a reasonable long-term plan to go Hybrid and eventually all-electric, maybe some manufacturers will bite. Volvo was close to entering DTM in the mid-10's, but decided against it, because they were still running naturally aspirated V8s back then. Maybe they're willing to enter a world championship that will align with their brand vision in the long term.

Honda could be another candidate. While they ruled out any other form of racing besides Formula One and Super GT for now, a WTCC, where they could run the same cars as in Super GT, could be interesting for them as well? Maybe even Audi could be convinced to stay with class one, if it means contesting for a world championship.

A world championship with BMW, Honda, Volvo, maybe Audi, maybe even those Aston Martins, may not save DTM, but could save class one racing? If anyone could talk to Jean Todt about it, it's Gerhard Berger. Maybe he has already talked to him, who knows.
According to this (in German, run through your favorite translator), none of the Japanese manufacturers has space in their budget for DTM right now. I'd guess that that pretty much applies to a World Championship as well, especially with all the uncertainty caused by Covid 19.

I still think Berger's best hope is to get BMW to run privateer teams and then somehow get Audi or maybeToyota with some old Lexuses to supply some of their cars to privateers for a Class1-field of 10 or so cars. If they can find another ten or so cars for a secondary class (TA2, GT3, whatever) they can at least put the series into some kind of holding pattern and gain time in which to decide about the long term future.
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Old 28 May 2020, 15:35 (Ref:3978950)   #155
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Yes, as for Super GT manufacturers the case seems definite - neither of the three is willing to go to DTM. I can't see any hope for DTM survival with Class One. The option to run customer BMW, Audi, maybe some Lexus or Nissan programs may seem conceivable on paper but first, I can't see customers having budgets allowing them to do so, and second, this could - if somehow possible - be only an interim idea.
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Old 28 May 2020, 17:09 (Ref:3978967)   #156
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Yes I can see the series running customer cars as a stopgap. Of course DTM is king of motorsport and if it goes, there is nothing to replace it. Nothing can replicate the success it has had, despite troubled times in itís existence
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Old 29 May 2020, 22:56 (Ref:3979251)   #157
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An idea I came up for fun.
So GT3 is popular, right? It works, but with BoP and aids, both of these were portrayed as against the image of DTM, but you'd have to live with BoP.
Second point, DTM is about "touring cars" (even if they are way separated from anything you can buy), so a front engined cars that resemble road cars, but not supercars.
So let's take all front engined GT3 cars for now, rip out the aids, leave BoP and you have somthing for your first season of new DTM before you have new cars built.

GT3 regs say, that the car cannot be based on a 4 door model (or one that has an 4 door option, I'm not sure). So let's homologate, for DTM, cars that are based on models that can be 4 doored (3-series, C-class etc.). Or even, they have to be 4 door versions and go back the the DTM of 2004 with saloons. Bam, GTS3 : Grand Touring Saloons. Just build a GT3 car, but not based on M6 but on M4 Gran Coupe instead.
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Old 30 May 2020, 08:33 (Ref:3979275)   #158
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Ex driver Manuel Reuter is saying the series has made the same mistake as the ITC in focusing too much on engineering and bringing the costs up
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Old 30 May 2020, 08:56 (Ref:3979279)   #159
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Ex driver Manuel Reuter is saying the series has made the same mistake as the ITC in focusing too much on engineering and bringing the costs up

Itís the same issue Supercars are facing atm
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Old 30 May 2020, 10:13 (Ref:3979284)   #160
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Originally Posted by PawUloN View Post
An idea I came up for fun.
So GT3 is popular, right? It works, but with BoP and aids, both of these were portrayed as against the image of DTM, but you'd have to live with BoP.
Second point, DTM is about "touring cars" (even if they are way separated from anything you can buy), so a front engined cars that resemble road cars, but not supercars.
So let's take all front engined GT3 cars for now, rip out the aids, leave BoP and you have somthing for your first season of new DTM before you have new cars built.

GT3 regs say, that the car cannot be based on a 4 door model (or one that has an 4 door option, I'm not sure). So let's homologate, for DTM, cars that are based on models that can be 4 doored (3-series, C-class etc.). Or even, they have to be 4 door versions and go back the the DTM of 2004 with saloons. Bam, GTS3 : Grand Touring Saloons. Just build a GT3 car, but not based on M6 but on M4 Gran Coupe instead.

I doubt that manufacturers will effectively build two different cars for one set regulations. And if we exclude rear-engined cars, manufacturers like Porsche and Audi will be ruled out anyway.

Though the idea of an unrestricted GT3 series has its charm, there are many disadvantages. First of all, the costs are likely to escalate in such a scenario. If manufacturers even commit to such a ruleset. The trend goes into decreasing the own development work in favour of spec parts, i.e. LMDh. Another big issue, as has been stated before, is the sheer amount of GT3 series in Europe and Germany. In the worse case, we may end up with a scenario similar to the CART/IRL split in the mid 90's. We'd have two series battling for the same fans, tracks, sponsors, manufacturers and so on. A war, where there'd only be losers.
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Old 30 May 2020, 15:07 (Ref:3979305)   #161
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I doubt that manufacturers will effectively build two different cars for one set regulations. And if we exclude rear-engined cars, manufacturers like Porsche and Audi will be ruled out anyway.

Though the idea of an unrestricted GT3 series has its charm, there are many disadvantages. First of all, the costs are likely to escalate in such a scenario. If manufacturers even commit to such a ruleset. The trend goes into decreasing the own development work in favour of spec parts, i.e. LMDh. Another big issue, as has been stated before, is the sheer amount of GT3 series in Europe and Germany. In the worse case, we may end up with a scenario similar to the CART/IRL split in the mid 90's. We'd have two series battling for the same fans, tracks, sponsors, manufacturers and so on. A war, where there'd only be losers.
I agree. Maybe the best solution would be to unite DTM and ADAC GT Masters so that the best part of both championships remain, like cars, accessibility from GT Masters and name, heritage and 'sprint' races from DTM.
Although I know it's impossible of course. ADAC and ITR would never work together and I doubt Ratel and his organisation would be too pleased about watching their platform being absorbed by DTM.
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Old 31 May 2020, 13:05 (Ref:3979453)   #162
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Ex driver Manuel Reuter is saying the series has made the same mistake as the ITC in focusing too much on engineering and bringing the costs up

Too much on engineering? He's joking, right? Or do they believe that those motorised standardised advertising billboards have any tiny bit of engineering onboard?



The more they talk about "engineering" the more I think that astronomical budgets were just for marketing reasons. Or salary in this PRESTIGIOUS and GLORIOUS UBER series were "a bit" too high.


Old DTM had much engineering - that's a fact. Looks like Herr Reuter has stuck in the Past.
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Old 31 May 2020, 17:04 (Ref:3979493)   #163
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The more they talk about "engineering" the more I think that astronomical budgets were just for marketing reasons. Or salary in this PRESTIGIOUS and GLORIOUS UBER series were "a bit" too high.

Spot on !! of course there are people on here that think that DTM is the king of motorsports
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Old 31 May 2020, 18:45 (Ref:3979514)   #164
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DTM has been Germany's premier tin-top series for decades. TCR, GT4 or Trans-Am regulations wouldn't fit the prestige.
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Old 1 Jun 2020, 06:58 (Ref:3979562)   #165
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Exactly. Even in times of trouble it's been the top motorsport series in Germany to follow. There's nothing too wrong with the current specification of cars, just need to bring the costs down. It wouldn't be the same if they completely changed the format. Other series in Germany with different specifications can be good series in their own right. They don't need to compare themselves with DTM, that's always gonna be top of the tree
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