Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[brandscooper]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

First DW was the one that ran Le mans and later PLM. It was wrecked at aLe mans by a Toyota and in practice at PLM by the Green Hornet GTC Porsche (which also hit the Muscle Milk HPD during the race.)

Film of the PLM crash showed that the DWing Might be unstable when hit from the rear quarter--the car rolled very easily.

The second DWing is the current one, with a new chassis and motor , new everything, not based on the old AMR-1 tub or Nissan Juke block, and hasn't worked all season. It is a very bad DWing.

I agree the DWing's shape is unique in road racing, but it proves nothing about the existing rules, which were designed to a different end.

It seems fans are the only ones calling for a new ultra-light eco-class. However, rules for all classes seem to be trending towards less fuel and fewer sets of tires. We might find in afive years that the original DWing is no better than the regular P-class cars of that day, simply because efficiency and resource management is a growing concern.

One more minor quibble: there is a reason sports cars have a ridiculous artificial "room for a passenger" rule: Relevance to road-going cars. That idea might have been warped to a point where the connections are so tenuous as to be ridiculous, but with the DWing ... Much like the Chapparal 2J, it is Purely a track-benefit design, with no application to road-going cars.

Generating downforce simply isn't an issue for cars that never travel much over 85 mph on public roads, spend most of their time in traffic, and where cup-holders and child-seats are more important than performance.

The DWing, since it was designed as a single-seater to race on oval tracks, has nothing to do with sports cars, or sporty cars. And not much to offer them either.

One final thing: when the DWing is able to run at Baltimore or Long Beach I will be impressed, but right now big bumps and tight turns seem tio scare the thing.

Big bumps, by the way, are one of the reasons ground effects are used to a limited degree in racing (as I know you know)---nothing flies like a car which only stays stuck on a flat road, once the chassis gets a few inches more away from that road. cars flying off at corners was a serious issue back in the ground-effect days.

As mentioned above the current open top DW is still the AMR tub, which is why i questioned your point. The only difference is the elan motor and any changes required for that installation. You are being a little unkind about its performance this year though. Without the last yellow at Road America it would probably have finished second, and it was also quick in Canada until it retired with a broken oil pump belt. It wasn't thst bad at Lime Rock either. Its also worth mentioning that a primary reason for not doing the street races is a lack of spare parts rather than an inability to compete on bumpy tracks. The closed top car that is supposed to debut at COTA is a central seat design as you suggest.

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The second DWing is the current one, with a new chassis and motor , new everything, not based on the old AMR-1 tub or Nissan Juke block, and hasn't worked all season.

Yes, it especially didn't work at Road America where it only led for 14 laps and finished 5th overall and ahead of the entire P2 class.

A terrible, horrible showing. Just awful.

[Maelochs]

Yo, we Both watched the Road America race. it led because of pit strategy and the Muscle Milk car blew by it easily, because while it was quick in a straight line it was crap in the turns.

Look, I have been a supporter iof the DeltaltaWing before it came to ALMS or went to Le mans. I don't need some fanboi carp defense/attack thread ... I have waded through enough of that.

The current car has only shown decent speed once, at Road Am, and has not shown reliability. I understand it is an entirely new engine, and the bodywork is mostly all new, to account for the new cooling needs, and the tries are also new. I understand factual information.

I also know aht I have watched ro attended every ALMS race for several years,.. I have seen the DWing race, in both original and its latest form.

This year's model has not performed well. Put aside the fanboi-ism ... saying the car was quick until it broke is saying it broke, and it broke at most of the races. These are just facts.

Next you will be telling me the RSR Jag and the Abruzzi were good cars.

Sorry, the current DWing is not a good car. It is getting better, and I hope when I see it at PLM this year it is as quick as it was at PLM last year, but finishing fifth in a 1000-mile race is a Whiole lot more impressive than leading on fuel strategy before breaking again.

Some of the P2 or PC cars might have led a lap because of odd pit stop schedules--GT or even GTC cars could head the field for a lap if all the prototypes pitted.

I hope the DWing gains the pace and reliability it had last year, but only a liar would claim it had those things now. Please don't make me go to ALMS.com and pul up all the results. Just admit it hasn't done well --yet--this year.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by joeb

The "second" DW as you call it still uses the AMR tub. It just has the new motor. You might be thinking of the coupe to debut at COTA, that will be a new tub.

Correct.

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Yo, we Both watched the Road America race. it led because of pit strategy and the Muscle Milk car blew by it easily, because while it was quick in a straight line it was crap in the turns.

Look, I have been a supporter iof the DeltaltaWing before it came to ALMS or went to Le mans. I don't need some fanboi carp defense/attack thread ... I have waded through enough of that.

You said it hasn't worked all season. It worked pretty well at RA. Not world-beating, but pretty well. End of story, dude. 1000 words not necessary.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

.....Film of the PLM crash showed that the DWing Might be unstable when hit from the rear quarter--the car rolled very easily.....

The film you are talking about did not show in detail what actually happened. Please read post # 469 here:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=469

I will write more in answer to your very long post later on, because you are bringing some very important points which need to be discussed and understood very well.

[Aysedasi]

Let's keep it good useful and friendly debate then please - with sources if definitive statements are made.

[optica]

If there were as many Deltawings on track as there are LMP2 cars and those Deltawings had been racing each other for as many seasons and events as the P2 cars have Where does anyone imagine the DW performance level would now be? To compare a solitary experimental car that has very little racing under its belt with a field of such highly developed prototypes as current P2s at this stage doesn't reveal anything much that could be considered definitive about the merits or otherwise of the Deltawing. At least we'll get the chance to see it racing in the future when some of the answers should become clearer. Not so long ago it was going to turn over at the first corner without the assistance of another vehicle.

[Maelochs]

As far as the practice crash with the DWing and Green Hornet Porsche, I'd like to know where you r information about the wheels locking comes from. In any case, the car flipped. I have seen all kinds of crashes between wide-front-track cars, and never seen the same reaction.

Of course the fact that the DWin had half the mass and also was driven at a 45-degree angle forward and right, where on a normal car, the right front wheel would have fought rotation, both have to be factored in.

In any case, the car is certified safe. I have my own worries, but I haven't called for the car to be banned or anything.

Hopefully by next season we will seen more DWings on track, and get a better idea of the different things the car can do.


For instance, the #0 was terribly slow around corners at road America, but I don't know if that was set-up, or a function of the design. if two or three were in the race, we could compare.

My overall position remains the same: while the DWing is a wonderfully original design, it isn't necessarily the shape of the future and it's appearance doesn't necessarily mean every other car is obsolete.

We shall see what the future holds.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by brandscooper

The Tucker/Level 5 car was built to a rule set. It doesn't pass FIA crash test regs. Its much lighter than the DW with the same power. It was built to run a 30 minute race not a 24hr race.

Not to throw us wildly off topic, but has Tucker's DS/R been FIA crash tested and failed, or was it not tested? Just my curiosity, not being nit picky.

[brandscooper]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Not to throw us wildly off topic, but has Tucker's DS/R been FIA crash tested and failed, or was it not tested? Just my curiosity, not being nit picky.

As an SCCA Runoffs car it does not need to pass the same FIA tests as the DW. As raced there's no way it would anyway. It was essentially a tube frame car.

[joeb]

The DW coupe tested today and they have tweeted a few pictures. This is the most revealing so far:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTRVD80IAAAL8V8.jpg:large

My eyes aren't keen enough to discern all the differences with this and the open top car, but it looks like the fin treatment is different and is that an airbox on the top? I like the "gill" treatment on the engine cover too. That should take care of the cooling issues!

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by joeb

The DW coupe tested today and they have tweeted a few pictures. This is the most revealing so far:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTRVD80IAAAL8V8.jpg:large

My eyes aren't keen enough to discern all the differences with this and the open top car, but it looks like the fin treatment is different and is that an airbox on the top? I like the "gill" treatment on the engine cover too. That should take care of the cooling issues!

They did that sort of thing on the DP01

I can't find a lower angle shot, but the lower angle looked quite similar.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by joeb

The DW coupe tested today and they have tweeted a few pictures. This is the most revealing so far:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTRVD80IAAAL8V8.jpg:large

That doesn't look wide enough to be a two seater.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by skycafe

That doesn't look wide enough to be a two seater.

It is a single seater and the seat is in the middle. The may not have been designed to LM spex either.

The rear looks identical (beside the engine cover, fin and all the stuff that makes it a coupe), just the holes are in different positions.

It would be great to get a picture of the under body to see how are things shaped there and find out if they managed to find more downforce, but I guess that would be asking too much

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by deltawing

It would be great to get a picture of the under body to see how are things shaped there and find out if they managed to find more downforce, but I guess that would be asking too much

Patience please, just wait for the Petit

[The Badger]

It doesn't look that bad from behind , like some women , but its a shocker from the front !!!

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by deltawing

It is a single seater and the seat is in the middle. The may not have been designed to LM spex either.

The cockpit is designed to 2014 LM specs.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by HJJ

The cockpit is designed to 2014 LM specs.

How did you know I was referring to the cockpit, looking at the fact that I completely missed the word? .... But yes, I was not sure about the cockpit because I think I saw a very bad quality picture somewhere and maybe it was the angle or the poor quality, but it looked like the rood was not up to spex. But it could be you are absolutely right. We should wait for better photos.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Patience please, just wait for the Petit

You think someone is going to be able to get a picture from underneath? I have never been able to find an under body shot of the DW on the internet. If know of one, please send me a link or just IM me. Thanks!

[EricS]

Originally Posted by deltawing

You think someone is going to be able to get a picture from underneath? I have never been able to find an under body shot of the DW on the internet. If know of one, please send me a link or just IM me. Thanks!

He was making a joke, that it will flip over again like last year. Hence the smiley.

[deggis]

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by deggis

This car with a rear wing (futuristic) will look more decent

[joeb]

Originally Posted by deltawing

You think someone is going to be able to get a picture from underneath? I have never been able to find an under body shot of the DW on the internet. If know of one, please send me a link or just IM me. Thanks!

I have taken pictures of the bottom sides of cars at tech inspections at Sebring and Road America. I've never done it at Road atlanta, but thinking about the usual location of the IMSA trailer, this should be possible.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by joeb

I have taken pictures of the bottom sides of cars at tech inspections at Sebring and Road America. I've never done it at Road atlanta, but thinking about the usual location of the IMSA trailer, this should be possible.

It would be very nice if you could!.... Looking at the full picture above, it seems noting else was changed on the car (beside the cockpit, engine cover, etc), so it will be essential to see some underneath pictures to find out how are they going to get extra downforce...