Lewis chooses his 3 strongest rivals

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by Andy77

I do not claim, not even subtile, that Ickx caused Bellofs death. I am using this particular move as a reference, which is a difference. If you don't take this out of context and if you read about the other move I compare it to, you might even find that I am closer to blame Bellof for what went utterly bad. By the way, on the same race weekend I mentioned with the F3 race above a certain german touring car ace ended up on the left side in the rail after attempting a similar move on an Audi driver (Tomczyk or Ekström I think, not sure for the moment). I am sorry if it reads different

Have to correct above. It was 2005 and Bernd Schneider hold the inside line through Eau Rouge when Aiello took him on the outside and sent him into the left rail after touching
Whatever, even this goes to show that Eau Rouge ain't a corner for two wide experiments. Either one pulls off or it goes bad

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by Mr V

To be fair, when i read your initial post, i didn't think you blamed Ickx either, i too thought you were using it for referance.

Thanks. I thought that I perhaps used a pretty misunderstandable wording.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Andy77

The media that "made a (admitedly, large) molehill in to a much larger mountain" today is the same media, that wrote the wrecker that Hamilton is, into the superstar status he still carries from back in the day.
I do not like Hamilton because he does stunts on the circuit that will end bad for both if the other driver doesn't throw the anchor and yet he [Hamiton] still gets applauded for.
Old example, but here it goes again. Back in F3 days Hamilton closed in to Sutil on the way from La Source to Eau Rouge at Spa circuit. He then overtook Sutil on the outside through Eau Rouge which at first, admittedly, looked like a brilliant move. Until it became clear by the various replays that Sutil had to lift midway, in order for both to make the corner. Something Jacky Ickx didn't do when Stefan Bellof attempted a very similar move at the same spot in 1985. How it turned out we all know.
Hamilton then went on to became the "ultimate race driver, overtaker, etc. .." . But again often only because the guys he fought for position pulled of the battle and waved him by in attempts of not getting their races wrecked.
Until Singapore 2010 and Monaco 2011 most of the people never saw the wrecker Hamilton is, I bet. It wasn't running for him, he met opponence for once (that usually pulled out of his way in the past) and promptly he crashes the opponents both times. Something that shone through when he met Alonso at McLaren, by the way, but being the teams pet and everyones darling back then he got away with it.
Today he only is a world champion in talking bull **** when it doesn't run his way. He did that before but being everyones darling he got (and gets) away with most of the bullsy stuff he is saying.
No I don't like race drivers wo get waved by because otherwise they'd deliberately wreck opponents races and cars like Hamilton did at Monaco when it didn't run his way. I am sorry but I am not able to like such a deliberate wrecker Hamilton is

I think it was Senna who said when someone (Mansell?) tried a ridiculous pass around the outside of his car and there was a contact that took them both off: "well he now knows not to try it again!"

This detracts from racing when the drivers can't trust one another, but on the other hand prevents the bullying behaviour that Hamilton is accused of here.

This is behaviour that the stewards should try to get rid of, the racing incident in the pit lane last year would be a case in point, where Hamilton obtained an unfair advantage by breaking the rules! It is an unsafe practice and should have been penalised.
If Hamilton pushes the boundaries which he does all the time, he should expect to come in front of the stewards and to be sanctioned for bad behaviour.
The threat of a stewards penalty ruining your race completely should discourage reckless behaviour and ensure that unsportsmanlike conduct isn't rewarded! The alternative is that the drivers start keeping score and repaying the slight in kind as Senna repaid Prost. Hamilton should have a few drivers interested in repaying the various punts he has dished out.
Could severely ruin a WDC campaign.

Perhaps some corners like Eau Rouge should be designated as no passing zones, important in establishing lap times, but no go areas for passing as the results are prejudicial or disasterous when someone pushes the point.
This leads to other problems like drivers deliberately going slow through the no passing section.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by wnut

......

Perhaps some corners like Eau Rouge should be designated as no passing zones, important in establishing lap times, but no go areas for passing as the results are prejudicial or disasterous when someone pushes the point.
This leads to other problems like drivers deliberately going slow through the no passing section.

Not sure that this is an option. Although F1 does it the other way round these days with its drs passing zone.

I'd find it important that stewards finally start to punish driving off track hard without all this "oooh but in start lap it is allowed but then we hand out penalties but only after the xyz (add your fav number here) time" or "oooh but in start lap it is allowed but then we hand out penalties but only if you stay behind curbs past that red mark on the asphalt" because by now it is proved that deliberate racing lines outside the track boundary (behind the white lines) are often faster than staying inside. I want to have it penalized hard because thanks to asphalted run offs the ultimate penalty of loosing time on wet gras up to loosing a whole race in gravel traps has gone.

The only place to my knowledge where it makes fully sense to put it under yellow for four-wheelers is Melco Hairpin at Macao.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Andy77

Have to correct above. It was 2005 and Bernd Schneider hold the inside line through Eau Rouge when Aiello took him on the outside and sent him into the left rail after touching
Whatever, even this goes to show that Eau Rouge ain't a corner for two wide experiments. Either one pulls off or it goes bad

In general, in an overtake in a corner, someone will almost always have to back off at some point in order to prevent a contact, because both cars won't fit on the racing line. That someone could be either driver.

I guess we should only allow overtakes on the straights, just to play it safe.

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by JamesH

In general, in an overtake in a corner, someone will almost always have to back off at some point in order to prevent a contact, because both cars won't fit on the racing line. That someone could be either driver.

I guess we should only allow overtakes on the straights, just to play it safe.

We should start to punish drivers hard who push over the boundary, who deliberatly take a crash into account just like Hamilton did in Monaco.

[luke g28]

Lol what are the chances realistically of drivers crashing deliberately? That's just what Hamilton's WDC campaign needs, a DNF. They all know that finishing with some points is better than not finishing with any. Yes he's a hot head and doesnt always make the best decisions but he's not going to write of his championship hopes on purpose. If he did I doubt he would still have a job.

[garcon]

This whole debate about overtaking into corners boils down to driver judgement. There will always be a risk.

I think it's up to the driver attempting the overtake to judge that risk, and realise that the further back he is when he goes for it the less likely the other driver will see him and the more likely the move will result in contact. Some corners, by their nature, also increase that risk. And of course there's always the possibility that the other driver will turn in anyway.

If it's clear that contact resulted because the overtaking driver got that judgement badly wrong, then he should take the penalty and shut up.

If it's clear the other driver could see (or should have seen) the overtaking car, was in a position to allow room and turned in anyway, then the stewards should be looking at him.

At the moment, as displayed at Monaco, Hamilton's judgement is sorely lacking. He needs to stop blaming everyone and everything else and learn the difference between aggressive and reckless.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by garcon

This whole debate about overtaking into corners boils down to driver judgement. There will always be a risk.

I think it's up to the driver attempting the overtake to judge that risk, and realise that the further back he is when he goes for it the less likely the other driver will see him and the more likely the move will result in contact. Some corners, by their nature, also increase that risk. And of course there's always the possibility that the other driver will turn in anyway.

If it's clear that contact resulted because the overtaking driver got that judgement badly wrong, then he should take the penalty and shut up.

If it's clear the other driver could see (or should have seen) the overtaking car, was in a position to allow room and turned in anyway, then the stewards should be looking at him.

At the moment, as displayed at Monaco, Hamilton's judgement is sorely lacking. He needs to stop blaming everyone and everything else and learn the difference between aggressive and reckless.

Good post!

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think it was Senna who said when someone (Mansell?) tried a ridiculous pass around the outside of his car and there was a contact that took them both off: "well he now knows not to try it again!"

Was that the collision they had at the 87 Belgian GP?

It astonishes me the way F1 has become, where everything has to be politically correct. I grew up watching Senna, Mansell, Piquet and co racing very hard.
Schumi's era, maybe because of his domination but also maybe because it was F1 after a worldwide televised disaster, Senna's fatal accident, has become anaesthetised.
The one move at the start of the race, the blue flag rule, backmarkers having to jump out of the way.
It used to be an art form dealing with backmarkers. It was one of Senna's weapons. Reutemann was passed by Lauda back in the 70' costing him a Grand Prix win.
Nowadays, coming up behind backmarkers doesn't give the pursuer any advantage which once was there.
I agree, at times Hamilton is rash with his manoeuvre's, but I get the feeling some of this is other drivers fed up of how stupid he's made them look in the past, and if there's a questionable overtake happening, they won't give him room.

Then you get the the younger generation of MotoGP riders who complain continuously that Rossi races too hard, too aggressive. Yet apart from his own accident last year, he's never injured another rider or himself whilst racing. Thankfully the bikers haven't forgotten what real competition is about.

[strider]

Originally Posted by garcon

At the moment, as displayed at Monaco, Hamilton's judgement is sorely lacking. He needs to stop blaming everyone and everything else and learn the difference between aggressive and reckless.

Apparently it was just a bad day at the office and everything will be fine now: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92097 That's all I have to say.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

Thankfully the bikers haven't forgotten what real competition is about.

Check out last weeks 125 Spanish GP (illegal overtake) race finish and the previous French MotoGPs 'racing incident' to see that Motor cycle racing has also become more...civilised?

"real competition" is possibly reserved for those vehicles that are able to withstand close contact with others without resulting in serious injury or accidents of a more unpredictable nature?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Check out last weeks 125 Spanish GP (illegal overtake) race finish and the previous French MotoGPs 'racing incident' to see that Motor cycle racing has also become more...civilised?

"real competition" is possibly reserved for those vehicles that are able to withstand close contact with others without resulting in serious injury or accidents of a more unpredictable nature?

Not to take this too far off topic, but Dorna, or whoever they are, while trying to get Simonchelli into line have now painted themselves in a corner. The 125 finish was a joke when you compare that to say, Rossi v Stoner at Laguna the other year but that's what the bikes now have to deal with.

[wnut]

"Then you get the the younger generation of MotoGP riders who complain continuously that Rossi races too hard, too aggressive. Yet apart from his own accident last year, he's never injured another rider or himself whilst racing. Thankfully the bikers haven't forgotten what real competition is about." Herowassenna

Being picky but,
Marco Melandri may beg to differ - 1995 Japanese MotoGP

“I knew it would be a risk to try and overtake and I expected Loris to pass Max in the final few laps. I knew I could be World Champion with fourth place and so I decided to just wait and do my race. Then Marco made a small mistake and suddenly I was behind him. It was the first time I had followed him into turn ten and we took completely different lines. He went to the outside of the track to cut across and get good acceleration out of the corner but I went to the inside to run wider on the exit.”

“For the first 50m of braking we were at exactly the same speed so there was no warning, but he was able to stop the bike much harder than me and I couldn’t avoid him. You can’t see it very well on the television but I wasn’t even trying to pass him, it was just one of those things. I apologised to Marco and he said ‘it happens.’ Now I am very concerned for him and I just hope he is ok.”

Gauloises Yamaha team director Davide Brivio added: “Our first concern is for Marco Melandri. We are not sure of his injuries just yet but we hope it is not serious and I wish him well on behalf of the whole team. There was a protest against Valentino put forward by Honda on behalf of all its MotoGP Teams, but Race Direction has judged this unfounded. As far as the championship is concerned, it is a pity we couldn’t finish it off here and for Valentino it is a shame that his run of podiums has been interrupted. All we can do is try to make up for it by taking the points back next time.”

from: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/a...p/t-65671.html

You are right though herowassenna the bike riders are really hard racers even with their present spat and far less full of airs and graces than the F1 drivers! Go MotoGP!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by wnut

Being picky but,
Marco Melandri may beg to differ - 1995 Japanese MotoGP

Being picky but Marco would only have been 13 in 1995

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Being picky but Marco would only have been 13 in 1995

Fair enough! 2005!

[Bononi]

Baaack on topic ?