[Team] The new Mercedes powered team for 2015.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by wnut

Oh that is good!

Ferrari could free up a lot of resources for their rumored Le Mans Prototype by shuttering their engine program

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

thats considerably cheaper.

As always, there is a link... a source... a confirmation..

Joe Saward's Calcs

[321Go]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

thats considerably cheaper.

Yes it is. And the price for the complete Mercedes driveline has been no secret. It pretty much has been out in the open even before the season started.

Back in late 2013, Mercedes (apparently) knocked back a request by another team for Mercedes power for 2014 - stating production issues. AMG can only supply four teams ATM. This may change to five teams in 2015.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

As always, there is a link... a source... a confirmation..

Joe Saward's Calcs

Quite happy to go along with this


"Mercedes at $26 million. Ker-Ching!
Uh-duh…"

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

As always, there is a link... a source... a confirmation..

Joe Saward's Calcs

Saward points to 'things being more expensive in France' as the reason the Renault is such a cost premium over the others. Not unreasonable I wouldn't have thought... and he ought to know... he lives there ! Given that things made in Japan are even more expensive still... I wonder what the Honda PU will cost in comparison to the others ? Also, whether Honda will subsidize its teams.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

As always, there is a link... a source... a confirmation..

Joe Saward's Calcs

Interesting prices.
It certainly gives you a cause to wonder about why F1 costs so much and how much wastage there is in F1.
So a Mercedes engine deal is $26.5 million (15.9 mil pounds) and the others considerably more.

When the Cosworth DFV was able to be purchased in 1968 they were 7500 quid a unit ($12500 USD) so the cost a Mercedes power unit for a year for one team could buy you 2120 DFV's at 1968 prices....

That would be enough to supply all 22 entries with a new DFV at every race for 5 years..... and still have enough left over to carry a spare engine for each entry in reserve...

F1 wastes money and resources at an incredible rate. It doesn't provide value for money for its paying customers, but nor does it get value for money for it's participants.
It simply spends what it has, and then some.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Interesting prices.
It certainly gives you a cause to wonder about why F1 costs so much and how much wastage there is in F1.
So a Mercedes engine deal is $26.5 million (15.9 mil pounds) and the others considerably more.

When the Cosworth DFV was able to be purchased in 1968 they were 7500 quid a unit ($12500 USD) so the cost a Mercedes power unit for a year for one team could buy you 2120 DFV's at 1968 prices....

That would be enough to supply all 22 entries with a new DFV at every race for 5 years..... and still have enough left over to carry a spare engine for each entry in reserve...

F1 wastes money and resources at an incredible rate. It doesn't provide value for money for its paying customers, but nor does it get value for money for it's participants.
It simply spends what it has, and then some.

Cosworth built some new DFV's a few years ago for the historic market. I don't know whether they are still available but that should give you an idea where current prices are.

[chillibowl]

are labour costs, material cost, utilities, etc that much less in Germany then in France?
still seems like a huge disparity among two countries within a common market now for decades.
surprised that any manufacturing exists in France at all really.

suspect there is a different reason for the cost difference but have nothing to support that at the moment.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

are labour costs, material cost, utilities, etc that much less in Germany then in France?
still seems like a huge disparity among two countries within a common market now for decades.
surprised that any manufacturing exists in France at all really.

suspect there is a different reason for the cost difference but have nothing to support that at the moment.

Except most of the Mercedes stuff is made in England.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Except most of the Mercedes stuff is made in England.

ah yes that makes more sense...and correct me if im wrong but the UK is far less a part of the common market then France or Germany.

[Go_For_Pole]

There are severe differences in labour cost and employee rights even within the common market. For starters France has 35 hours work week, something which as far as I know is unique in Europe.

[P38 in workshop]

Its also possible that the board of Renault have made it clear that there will be no corporate subsidy for the cost of an engine development programme.In which case the development will have to be funded by the income from supplying engines.

If we examine the history of Renault engines they have achieved quite a few championships and this would suggest that they had the capability to build the best engines.What may currently be lacking is the cadre of engineers who made forced induction work and their current equivalents may take a while to get to the dominant level that Renault used to enjoy.

It would be a brave man if anybody suggested that Honda will be far off the pace when they return and am I alone in wishing that somebody would throw enough cash at Cosworth to do their stuff with a current generation power unit?

Mercedes cannot be complacent and any of the others could give them a hard time quite soon.

[Tucky]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

and am I alone in wishing that somebody would throw enough cash at Cosworth to do their stuff with a current generation power unit?

I'm with you there. The engines are far too complicated and expensive for Cosworth to have a crack at and it's a shame that the engine manufacturers from huge companies with massive budgets can dictate what sort of engine F1 should have.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Tucky

I'm with you there. The engines are far too complicated and expensive for Cosworth to have a crack at and it's a shame that the engine manufacturers from huge companies with massive budgets can dictate what sort of engine F1 should have.

I contend that the engines are quite simple, it is all the bolt on KERS gubbins that up the cost to ridiculous levels.

[Tucky]

Originally Posted by wnut

I contend that the engines are quite simple, it is all the bolt on KERS gubbins that up the cost to ridiculous levels.

Yeah, my mistake. When I said complicated I meant the electric Power unit attached to the engine. I think if it was just the KERS system like in the previous years it wouldn't be too much of a problem, but with the amount of harvesting/brake-by-wire/ERS, it's too much for a small company like Cosworth

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Interesting prices.
It certainly gives you a cause to wonder about why F1 costs so much and how much wastage there is in F1.
So a Mercedes engine deal is $26.5 million (15.9 mil pounds) and the others considerably more.

When the Cosworth DFV was able to be purchased in 1968 they were 7500 quid a unit ($12500 USD) so the cost a Mercedes power unit for a year for one team could buy you 2120 DFV's at 1968 prices....

That would be enough to supply all 22 entries with a new DFV at every race for 5 years..... and still have enough left over to carry a spare engine for each entry in reserve...

F1 wastes money and resources at an incredible rate. It doesn't provide value for money for its paying customers, but nor does it get value for money for it's participants.
It simply spends what it has, and then some.

£7,500 in 1967 is around £300,000 [$500K] in today's money. If they were to be allowed five of those per season [current engine change rules] then they'd be looking at around $2.5M/car or $5M/team. It's still a fraction of the cost of current V6 power units.

That said, today's PUs are far more complicated [too complicated] than the DFV. I've read that they have cost upwards of $1BN to develop - something an organization like Cosworth would never have been able to undertake back in the day... even with Ford's support. It's clear that manufacturers are attempting to recoup some of that development cost via the engine programme charges.

I still believe there was no need for all this rubbish however. It's exacerbated the cost control problem, confused fans and has brought nothing [that hadn't been done elsewhere before] to the R+D table. Maybe they should have gone to Cosworth and Ilmor and had them tender for a common spec. engine.

[wolfhound]

Ilmor? I thought they were now owned by MB and thats where all those GP winning power units now come from. a

If you are going to develop any new technology it will usually cost a lot of money but the benefits come later as costs are reduced and the technology maturers. That is unless somebody has an 'Eureka' moment and dreams up a new idea that is able to knock everything else into the dark ages at one go.

Developing new technology is what F1 should be about. From that point of view the new power units are heading in the right direction. However I think the LMP rules allow much greater freedom and might allow sportscars be the place to develop new technology not F1.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Ilmor? I thought they were now owned by MB and thats where all those GP winning power units now come from. a

If you are going to develop any new technology it will usually cost a lot of money but the benefits come later as costs are reduced and the technology maturers. That is unless somebody has an 'Eureka' moment and dreams up a new idea that is able to knock everything else into the dark ages at one go.

Developing new technology is what F1 should be about. From that point of view the new power units are heading in the right direction. However I think the LMP rules allow much greater freedom and might allow sportscars be the place to develop new technology not F1.

The current technology has been 'legislated' rather than 'developed'. It may be new to F1 but it's been done before on the road. Its presence in F1 is little more than a PR exercise. If F1 is to become a platform for innovation, then the rules need to be thrown wide open and the engineers need to be sent developing in a direction that really is cutting edge. Don't expect that to be cheap though. If entertainment and cost control are the objectives... then make more of the vehicle spec. and place the emphasis on the driver and the car set-up/strategy.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by davyboy

If entertainment and cost control are the objectives... then make more of the vehicle spec. and place the emphasis on the driver and the car set-up/strategy.

At that rate F1 could just be GP2, WSR or Indycar or any one of a number of other single seater spec series.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

At that rate F1 could just be GP2, WSR or Indycar or any one of a number of other single seater spec series.

Possibly... but then do $25M budgets for highly prescriptive rule driven power train units fulfill a quest for innovation or cost control.

[wdave0]

Wouldn't Gene Haas be a likely candidate? A new team with no engine seems likelier than an existing one switching.

[Mike Harte]

Although it is lovely to look back at the late 60s and early 70s with great nostalgia and misty eyes, it was, figuratively, a different world. Yes, in 1967 it may have only cost £7,500 for a Cosworth DFV, but by how much were they subsidised by Fomoco. Don't forget, the DFV was commissioned by them in the first instance, and they paid for the initial start-up costs.

But looking back all dewey-eyed, you forget that teams didn't used to run just one engine per car per race week-end. Each car would probably use 3 different enhines, one for free practice, a screamer for qualifying and the third for the race. And very often, they couldn't even last for the whole race.

But I think that you will find that by about 1970, prices had began to harden significantly. I can recall that in the latish 1970 looking to buy a twin-cam, and a half decent one would have cost in excess of £10,000. You certainly couldn't get even a second hand DFV for that price then.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Although it is lovely to look back at the late 60s and early 70s with great nostalgia and misty eyes, it was, figuratively, a different world. Yes, in 1967 it may have only cost £7,500 for a Cosworth DFV, but by how much were they subsidised by Fomoco. Don't forget, the DFV was commissioned by them in the first instance, and they paid for the initial start-up costs.

But looking back all dewey-eyed, you forget that teams didn't used to run just one engine per car per race week-end. Each car would probably use 3 different enhines, one for free practice, a screamer for qualifying and the third for the race. And very often, they couldn't even last for the whole race.

But I think that you will find that by about 1970, prices had began to harden significantly. I can recall that in the latish 1970 looking to buy a twin-cam, and a half decent one would have cost in excess of £10,000. You certainly couldn't get even a second hand DFV for that price then.

You're right about everything here. However by the 1970s, F1 had become ostensibly a single engine formula and that did mean costs were considerably lower than today... allowing for inflation of course.

[Tucky]

Mike's also pointed out what I think is the biggest difference between the 70's and now, the reliability of the engine. Yes the engines were a lot cheaper back then, but not only were the engines really unreliable, they were also rebuilt after every race meaning that they practically used a new engine every single time. If we did this now the material cost would be astronomical, and that's not bringing in labour costs/ time effectively wasted rebuilding the damn thing.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Tucky

Mike's also pointed out what I think is the biggest difference between the 70's and now, the reliability of the engine. Yes the engines were a lot cheaper back then, but not only were the engines really unreliable, they were also rebuilt after every race meaning that they practically used a new engine every single time. If we did this now the material cost would be astronomical, and that's not bringing in labour costs/ time effectively wasted rebuilding the damn thing.

Aside from the fact that the DFVs were being pushed beyond well their design limits, the manufacturing and assembly techniques back then were primitive in comparison to today. This will give you an idea as well as this. This exposed them to a great deal more failures than they ought to have been. DFVs [and their successors] running in historic racing today can last several seasons between rebuilds and deliver almost as much power as back in the day.