[DTM] DTM 2020

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by andy97

If it wants a unique place but retain manufacturer interest it could somehow clothe a Formula E drivetrain underneath similar silhouettes to the current cars

that's indeed a very logical idea

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

that's indeed a very logical idea

I think theres a huge opportunity for the first series that can make fully electric cars work in the touring car format.

Electric TCR are ahead of the game now but their weird rallycross trials style format won't fit proper track racing, and they are all hatchbacks.

I could imagine electric versions of the DTM format car being a great idea, great looks, modern tech, and most importantly- shells that look like the car you can go buy at the dealership. I cant imagine you would struggle for manufacturer interest if you can get it right, at the right time.

[Racing Harz]

New Schedule:
10.07 - 12.07 - Norisring
01.08 - 02.08 - Spa
14.08 - 16.08 - Lausitzring
21.08 - 23.08 - Lausitzring
04.09 - 06.09 - Assen
11.09 - 13.09 - Nürburgring
18.09 - 20.09 - Nürburgring
09.10 - 11.10 - Zolder
16.10 - 18.10 - Zolder
06.11 - 08.11 - Hockenheim

[Matt K]

Good calendar and good damage limitation, I mean it's sad to see Anderstorp and Monza go, especially given it could've been the last chance for DTM to go there, but at least there are still ten rounds on great tracks. Shame that instead of the second Lausitzring there's no Oschersleben. And it could be something different instead of two Zolder rounds but in these circumstances it is understandable. Btw great to see DTM go back to Spa. I also hope Norisring opener will come to fruition, this could be great to have it as a season opener although at Norisring the lack of people on grandstands will be the most visible.

[S griffin]

Every cloud has a silver lining, in this case a return to Spa. Zolder is a decent track, that can produce some good racing. But Spa will be something else

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Before any new direction is decided I think the DTM needs a long hard look at its identity and what is wants or can be in the German motorsport scene. Personally I seriously question if any TCR+/Superstars/Trans-Am/GT3-esque series has a real shot at being a long term sustainable solution. The same could probably be said for GTE, though it might work for a year or two in a worst case scenario.

To me, you have to look at the multitude of factors that have contributed to the success of the various series in Germany over the past 40+ years. The DTM, and the DRM and Interserie before, have in my eyes always made the most sense when it has had the biggest stars and cars in Germany - when it feels like it is the battleground of its automotive industry, engineering talent, sponsors and teams. I feel much of that is lost if you throw engineering to the side and head for a performance-balanced or spec solution, and I think there's an expectation from the audience of some flair and power when it comes to the cars. TCR/GT3 ain't that.

To me it makes the most sense to look at where the German automotive manufacuters are at when it comes to their sporty mass-market cars and marketing. Where are the autobahn cruisers going? Why is Volkswagen doing the ID.R instead of any number of racing programs? Right now it feels like the challenge for Audi/BMW/Merc etc is to combine power and sportiness with something that's also forward-looking at sell their traditional consumers on it. If you can tap into that feeling you might find something that speaks both to manufacturers and fans.

I don't know - something like this might not even end up being a touring car series, but does that matter in the grand scheme of things? Germany is a big country where I bet you could run any number of racing series successfully, but constantly aiming for the stars has always seemed to be what's been behind their highest highs and lowest lows throughout the years.

[Matt K]

If we have to revive this sentiment of manufacturers technological wars, DTM should go fully electric and probably pause for a year or two. The other thing is, would electric DTM appeal to manufacturers who are already in Formula E? FE is not exciting for me but it was the first electric series and this gives FE an advantage over any series that goes electric too, I fear.
If electric DTM is not the way forward for the time being, it has to be accepted that times of heavy manufacturers involvement and technology being king are over. GT3 would be great but with ADAC GT Masters on the scene I doubt it could work, whereas GTE has a declining interest, there are just a few manufacturers involved and cars are still very expensive.

Interesting that Anderstorp boss said he wants his track to be in DTM in 2021 as if he was sure that there will be DTM next year.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by Matt K

If we have to revive this sentiment of manufacturers technological wars, DTM should go fully electric and probably pause for a year or two. The other thing is, would electric DTM appeal to manufacturers who are already in Formula E? FE is not exciting for me but it was the first electric series and this gives FE an advantage over any series that goes electric too, I fear.
If electric DTM is not the way forward for the time being, it has to be accepted that times of heavy manufacturers involvement and technology being king are over. GT3 would be great but with ADAC GT Masters on the scene I doubt it could work, whereas GTE has a declining interest, there are just a few manufacturers involved and cars are still very expensive.

Interesting that Anderstorp boss said he wants his track to be in DTM in 2021 as if he was sure that there will be DTM next year.

I pretty much agree, and I think your questions could have a common answer. FE has never felt that impressive to me either, so that should be the objective - create a ruleset that feels like a proper racing series. FE is so much in its own bubble and I feel that's a weakness to be exploited.

Otherwise I agree that it's time to course correct and forget about the manufacturers. Then you just need to build a package of fan excitement/sponsorship interest that makes sense. Maybe something akin to Supercars could work? It certainly feels like you should be able to translate the Holden/Ford rivalry to Audi/BMW/Mercedes and independent/semi-independet teams without too much difficulty.

[S griffin]

Formula E is good in it’s own right, so I think it would be a mistake to try and replicate it everywhere

And as you say we can have a great battle between marques without relying totally on manufacturers for support

[BertMk2]

Looks like there's going to be another calendar change - the Norisring round is a no go as the local government have said "no" to the current date.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Otherwise I agree that it's time to course correct and forget about the manufacturers. Then you just need to build a package of fan excitement/sponsorship interest that makes sense.

I'm not really sure if you could base a professional championship on external sponsor money right now. Sponsorship seems really hard to come by these days... if you look at the companies that are represented on DTM-cars right now, almost all of them are either subsidiaries of Audi and BMW or B2B partners. The days when Jägermeister, Warsteiner or D2/Vodafone saw racing sponsorship as a desirable kind of advertising are long gone.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I pretty much agree, and I think your questions could have a common answer. FE has never felt that impressive to me either, so that should be the objective - create a ruleset that feels like a proper racing series. FE is so much in its own bubble and I feel that's a weakness to be exploited.

Otherwise I agree that it's time to course correct and forget about the manufacturers. Then you just need to build a package of fan excitement/sponsorship interest that makes sense. Maybe something akin to Supercars could work? It certainly feels like you should be able to translate the Holden/Ford rivalry to Audi/BMW/Mercedes and independent/semi-independet teams without too much difficulty.

Yes, I feel Formula E's only positive side is that it's electric and manufacturers use it as their field of technological experiments. And this is 'eco' and 'trendy' and all people talking about environment may be at the races talking about the whole green world view. Looking at FE and setting aside manufacturer abundance and big sponsors, there's nothing there. But it's my personal view and it's an offtop.
And when it comes to your comparison to Supercars - yes, I've been telling this for years, DTM should take Supercars as an example.

When it comes to calendar, it's a huge shame Norisring won't happen especially given this could be the last race of DTM at the track. I wonder whether they replace it with a different track.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Matt K

field of technological experiments

Not at all. It's a pure marketing project with absolute zero R&D. I haven't seen any reviews or comparison of any MGUs used in FE. The fact is they are almost identical. And all other components are completely standard.



There were some experiments in LMP1 (Audi accumulators were rather interesting), but all that sheer electro stuff is not suitable even for 1H racing.

[Matt K]

Yeah, maybe I went a bit too far with this claim but yeah, as you say it's a marketing tool that sort of reflects development of electric technologies by BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar and so on.

[helgi]

Wow. DTM officials decided to write some tech info from tests.

".....In the process, the engineers have to deal with a wide array of parameters, e.g.:
.....
• Gearbox settings and ratios


• Differential settings like pre-load, friction plate pairs and ramp angles


• Ratios related to circuit configurations and the torque curve of the engines...."

Didn't they have a standard gearbox right from the very begging in 2000 with fixed ratios for the whole season? Have I missed something?

[Matt K]

Interesting words from Marco Wittmann. He said he'd like to stick to Class One cars, which is unfortunately utopian. But he also said "There are two or three options that are good at the moment that we could make use of, but let’s see which direction things go" which makes me hopeful some things are being discussed and maybe there is a way forward.

[uesugi kenshin]

Perhaps the future of DTM is e-sports, they wouldn't have to worry about building a car at all then !!

[S griffin]

We will wait for a game dedicated to DTM, give it a few years. However there is still a place for the real DTM

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Interesting words from Marco Wittmann. He said he'd like to stick to Class One cars, which is unfortunately utopian. But he also said "There are two or three options that are good at the moment that we could make use of, but let’s see which direction things go" which makes me hopeful some things are being discussed and maybe there is a way forward.

Motorsport Aktuell (Print edition) is suggesting that a switch to NGTC regs could be possible. What I don't know is if that's just the author's opinion or something that is being discussed at ITR.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Motorsport Aktuell (Print edition) is suggesting that a switch to NGTC regs could be possible. What I don't know is if that's just the author's opinion or something that is being discussed at ITR.

That could be interesting to see and I think it is feasible. However, another thing is, what harm it would do (if any) to DTM's "place in the motorsport ladder." But if it was still done with such marketing approach and it would make grids big, then I'm up for it.

[Matt K]

https://www.speedweek.com/dtm/news/1...ne-Option.html

Gerhard Berger rules out break, similar to that between 1997 and 1999, which for me is clear - either DTM survives somehow beyond 2020 or there is no DTM at all. It is claimed the information about the future will be before start of the season.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Matt K

https://www.speedweek.com/dtm/news/1...ne-Option.html

Gerhard Berger rules out break, similar to that between 1997 and 1999, which for me is clear - either DTM survives somehow beyond 2020 or there is no DTM at all. It is claimed the information about the future will be before start of the season.

They just do not have those enthusiasts who would "born" and "nurse" revival idea again, as they've done in 1998.

[helgi]

According to Motorposrt-Total Berger wants to make DTM-GT3 with BoP ruled by ITR (more hp than usual GT3 have). Distancing from GT Masters he said they (GT Masters) had mostly hobby-drivers, while DTM-GT3 would have been super druper professional and prestigious status for manufacturers only. Looks like he lives on a different planet in parallel reality. That would explain his quotes about "technical competition" that takes place in DTM.

[Matt K]

I don't think it's really that bad idea, for me seems quite doable. There is of course concern whether manufacturers will be willing to participate in whatever form and if this platform is attractive enough for other teams that race GT3 cars but I think it's concievable. Definitely more so than sticking to Class 1 rules.

[uesugi kenshin]

Has Gerhard Berger ever had a good idea?