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Old 2 Oct 2018, 11:50 (Ref:3854023)   #316
Robyn Slater
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Does anyone know the situation with S2 Europas. (Renault powered) Did they race in period?
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 13:25 (Ref:3854047)   #317
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Does anyone know the situation with S2 Europas. (Renault powered) Did they race in period?
Look on the FIA Historic Database

https://historicdb.fia.com/cars/list?search=europa

If Homologated, you can race it.
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Old 8 Oct 2018, 15:01 (Ref:3855452)   #318
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If a car was Homologated for Gp 2 but one was never used in period, does this mean it can`t be used in historics today ?
I think one example of the is the Reliant Scimitar GTE ?

alex
If the car is/was homologated then there is no need for it to have raced in an International event in period.The classic case, long established, is the Gilbern GT
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Old 9 Oct 2018, 06:28 (Ref:3855589)   #319
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OK that's interesting, thanks Jeremy...
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 16:01 (Ref:3869469)   #320
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Maybe a little OT but what exactly are the rules regarding electronics in cars period H1 and H2 ?
I see some cars with updated electronic equipment such as ignition, rev counters, alternators etc.....is this generally accepted for reliability reasons ?
Or has it just not been noticed....alex
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 05:48 (Ref:3869589)   #321
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I think rev limiters have become acceptable for reliability reasons. Likewise electronic ignition. I recall Masters being one of the first to permit them.

I tried to stick to original ignition and then one day, an hour into the Spa 3hrs the heel fell off the points coming out of Raidilon. Race over.
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 07:51 (Ref:3869608)   #322
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Nothing has changed. The rules are there, we try our best to implement them and then they are ignored at events or cars put back to a specification which wouldn't have been accepted.

On electronic ignition. Masters regulations are "Series" regulations and have their specific rules for MSD in Period F, other than that Appendix K stands - if applied properly.
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 08:10 (Ref:3869611)   #323
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Agreed Louis. I should have clarified that series regs permit certain changes.
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Old 20 Apr 2019, 16:51 (Ref:3898767)   #324
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I have been given the impression that air boxes on Chevron B19/21 are causing confusion with regards to being not fitted in period. I can assure those who are concerned for FIA paper purposes they were. They were not at first available from Chevron! but from John Lepp / Mirfield Garage, as he had the moulds made at his expense. The photo left taken October 1972 at Rouen Paris 1000Kms.

Last edited by p261brm; 20 Apr 2019 at 16:56.
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Old 20 Apr 2019, 17:40 (Ref:3898776)   #325
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I have been given the impression that air boxes on Chevron B19/21 are causing confusion with regards to being not fitted in period. I can assure those who are concerned for FIA paper purposes they were. They were not at first available from Chevron! but from John Lepp / Mirfield Garage, as he had the moulds made at his expense. The photo left taken October 1972 at Rouen Paris 1000Kms.
Thanks Stuart. There was dialogue between some teams and scrutineers at Barcelona two weeks ago concerning air boxes, but I’m not sure of the outcome. Am now endeavouring to get the full picture.......
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Old 22 Apr 2019, 09:15 (Ref:3898972)   #326
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Thanks Stuart. There was dialogue between some teams and scrutineers at Barcelona two weeks ago concerning air boxes, but I’m not sure of the outcome. Am now endeavouring to get the full picture.......
I think the problem for the 2litre sports cars lays with the FIA themselves, in period The World Championship for makes and a seperate 2litre Championship, with a seperate set of rules, particualy for 1972, cockpits open. full width windscreens, headlights etc. but not for the 2litre Martini. this presents just as did in period a problem in that most of these cars were run by private teams, and are expensive to run, more rules will force owners away, as it did in period.
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 07:05 (Ref:3899105)   #327
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I think the problem for the 2litre sports cars lays with the FIA themselves, in period The World Championship for makes and a seperate 2litre Championship, with a seperate set of rules, particualy for 1972, cockpits open. full width windscreens, headlights etc. but not for the 2litre Martini. this presents just as did in period a problem in that most of these cars were run by private teams, and are expensive to run, more rules will force owners away, as it did in period.
The problem does not come from FIA, the problem comes from the paddock here and scrutineers it would appear. A car if accepted with an airbox on its HTP will be allowed to use it as the specification approved is valid as a whole.

But you cannot cherry pick bits and bobs from one specification and mix it with another, it's all about running a car today as one that ran in period. Additionally, the European Championship did not run to different rules than the Appendix J in period, WSC or 2L European Championship were the same.

Assymmetric and symmetric cockpit/rops were a ruling update from 1972 onwards and applicable across the whole scope of sport prototype racing and classified as Group 5 from then. Already announced in 1971 in Appendix J in fact. Delays were given it is known to certain manufacturers to update their design and as an example with the Lola T290.
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Old 23 Apr 2019, 14:19 (Ref:3899183)   #328
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I think the problem for the 2litre sports cars lays with the FIA themselves, in period The World Championship for makes and a seperate 2litre Championship, with a seperate set of rules, particualy for 1972, cockpits open. full width windscreens, headlights etc. but not for the 2litre Martini. this presents just as did in period a problem in that most of these cars were run by private teams, and are expensive to run, more rules will force owners away, as it did in period.
Weren't they called sports prototypes, e.g. they were prototypes and not production cars so the teams could modify them in any way they wanted, as long as the car still met the rules (usually only covering dimensions and capacities).
Of course doing similar things but with current knowledge would make them quicker but does not reflect what happened in period.
So the problem is how do you establish what modifications are of a type done in period.
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 11:49 (Ref:3899361)   #329
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The problem does not come from FIA, the problem comes from the paddock here and scrutineers it would appear. A car if accepted with an airbox on its HTP will be allowed to use it as the specification approved is valid as a whole.

But you cannot cherry pick bits and bobs from one specification and mix it with another, it's all about running a car today as one that ran in period. Additionally, the European Championship did not run to different rules than the Appendix J in period, WSC or 2L European Championship were the same.

Assymmetric and symmetric cockpit/rops were a ruling update from 1972 onwards and applicable across the whole scope of sport prototype racing and classified as Group 5 from then. Already announced in 1971 in Appendix J in fact. Delays were given it is known to certain manufacturers to update their design and as an example with the Lola T290.
Hi Louis, regarding the above mentioned point with air boxes etc, in Barcelona we ran a B19 with an air box, we have been told if we want to continue racing with an air box, it needs to be on the HTP for Spa next month.

I would like the option to run an air box and race in the same specification to our competitor's B19's.

My issue: We found the MSA will not grant papers for a B19 with headlights (required for Peter Auto events) and an air box in period G-
"07.07.17 We are not interested in what might be required for whatever series. An HTP can only be issued for a car exactly as it was in period - or a precise copy of such a car. If non period specification parts are needed for a series today then those parts must be fitted after a correct HTP has been obtained.
So, please fit the appropriate bodywork, remove all remaining airbox components and we can process this."


At the time we didn't want to dispute, so accepted the expense to have a spare nose painted (without headlights), removed the air box system, and finally the HTP was issued.

To resolve the Scrutineering/Air box issue; would you advise to:
-Re-submit HTP papers to the MSA with updated photos?
-Dispute the PA's scrutineer- Henri Pluton's decision?
...or is there an appeal system to protest every period G B19 in Europe running an air box?

If the HTP avenue has to be taken, could you clarify about headlights - I understand in 1971's appendix J Art. 270. allows the mounting of head lights. (I can't see how 5-3/4" headlamps are not period correct)

Thanks
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Old 24 Apr 2019, 12:56 (Ref:3899378)   #330
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How can you have an FIA series running its own regulations?
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