Upgrading this weekend (hopefully)

[BeccaBlue]

Hi all!
I have enough days to upgrade from trainee track marshal this weekend.
So what does getting an upgrade signature involve?
Will there be questions? Should I be scared? Will money need to change hands?

[Steve Fox]

I slip larger and larger sums inside my PRC to try to improve the comments but no luck yet so money won't be required, If you are ready to upgrade you will not need any fear either, just do your stuff.
There are two assessments, One for flag and one for incident, You will need to be on post with an examining grade post chief and you should really arrange this post with your chief Marshal in advance (that's Mildred if you are at Brands this weekend), Flag is what it is but incident does usually involve there being an incident (obviously) so you could take several goes to be examined.
The two assessments can be on the same weekend but not on the same day.
You would also need to have the correct amount of signatures.

[Bodysnatcher]

from the MSA website, the 2012 grading scheme.
http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/m...rshals2012.pdf

As it points out, I expect to see the K,A,S & E appropriate for the upgrade.

[deley]

Originally Posted by BeccaBlue

Hi all!
I have enough days to upgrade from trainee track marshal this weekend.
So what does getting an upgrade signature involve?
Will there be questions? Should I be scared? Will money need to change hands?

The advice I give to Trainee to Track upgraders is ..... are you ready to take on the responsibility of looking after a brand new (or relatively new) trainee on your own and keeping them safe but involved and to be able to begin teaching them out on the bank.

Dave

[Shelagh]

No idea what upgrading involves these days but to my mind you should ask yourself whether or not you feel confident at dealing with an incident on your own (ie without being "directed").

I can "do" but don't have the confidence of some of my better colleagues (eg Mike Kelly-types) when the s**t hits the fan, which is why I went down the flagging route. We all have to do what we are best suited for.

Good Luck on your assessment.

[Kangaroo75]

Originally Posted by BeccaBlue

Hi all!
I have enough days to upgrade from trainee track marshal this weekend.
So what does getting an upgrade signature involve?
Will there be questions? Should I be scared? Will money need to change hands?

Sounds like you have just the minimum amount of days to go for an upgrade,

My advice: Don't rush in upgrading, enjoy your time on the bank and build up experience

Just to give you an example, at Oulton Park a few weeks ago at Modified Live there wasn't enough marshals (Flag and Incident) to go round, so Green badges were promoted to Post chief AND Flag marshal and given a radio and report forms, the amount of green badges that wished they hadn't upgraded was apparent!

I've found that lots of people try and rush an upgrade to Green badge to get selected for the Grand Prix or Le Mans but when it comes down to it, they are less than ready

It all comes down to experience

Do you feel ready to take on a few Trainee marshals and look after them and answer questions (and deal with a possible big incident in the short time that help arrives?) and look after yourself all at the same time

Hope this helps!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Kangaroo75

Sounds like you have just the minimum amount of days to go for an upgrade,

My advice: Don't rush in upgrading, enjoy your time on the bank and build up experience

The number of days specified for an upgrade is the minimum - in reality, unless you've been exceptionally busy you will probably need three times that to gain both the experience & the confidence to be happy in your new grade.

I think that nowadays, unfortunately, too much emphasis is placed on grading. Yes, grading is important both for your own satisfaction & as an indication to your colleagues of your abilities, but it should be a reflection of that, not an end in itself.

Get out there, enjoy your marshalling & upgrade only when you feel ready. As I've said many times, it's better to have people asking you to your face why you haven't upgraded than have them asking behind your back why you have.

[drewchef]

I'm new, have 12 signatures, so theoretically just 3 more and I could go for upgrade.
Too few in my opinion. On average the meetings I have attended have had an incident just one in two.
So, about 6 times watching and learning from the experienced people do what they do.
I reckon it would take a couple of seasons to be, as an earlier poster pointed out, competent enough to be able to to teach and direct other trainees to be both effective and more importantly safe whilst trackside.

[Slipstick]

I've done 40+ days over almost 2 years...no chance of me upgrading yet, if ever.

I'm too old and unfit to feel confident with the mandatory incident part of the deal. I'd hate for any driver to have to rely on me getting to him in a hurry . And of course these days you can't be a flag marshal without going through Track and Experienced grade (minimum 3-4 years and lots of incident work) so I'm going to be a trainee for as long as my "career" lasts. Just hoping friendly Chief Marshals will let me play with flags.

But if you're comfortable with both incident and flags and you're happy to take some responsibility for any trainees you may get asked to sort out then go for it. But as others have said it's not really vital. If you marshal mainly at one or two circuits you'll find the "bosses" soon work our who you are and what you can do and, particularly if you do the smaller less popular meetings, you'll get as much responsibility as you want (at least ).

Good luck - Steve

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

I'm too old and unfit to feel confident with the mandatory incident part of the deal. I'd hate for any driver to have to rely on me getting to him in a hurry

Slipstick, as an examining post chief I can only say: you are never too old to and unfit (otherwise many of the marshals would be out, including me )
A driver has to wait, there is no "hurry" in getting to an incident, just to get there in a safe way. There is bound to be a young gun around you somewhere who's keen enough to do a sprint. Besides, once you've done the assessment bit, you can go for flags.
Give it a try to upgrade, you won't regret it.
I would hate to see somebody who turns up that often as you to miss out on the goodies.

[BeccaBlue]

Thanks to everyone for all the advice. It's very much appreciated

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Yes, grading is important both for your own satisfaction & as an indication to your colleagues of your abilities, but it should be a reflection of that, not an end in itself.

This was very well put, and I agree with those of you that have said not to rush into upgrading. On that line, I probably won't be going for my incident signature for a while yet.

I'm pretty happy to attempt the flagging upgrade though, largely due to my unfortunate habit of marshalling at understaffed events...(I've been promoted to flag marshal before my time on more than one occasion )

[Shelagh]

It has been said before, so I'll say it again. Flagging is not an "also ran" job but probably the best one on the bank and one of the most important because you are communicating with the drivers throughout - rather than waiting for something to happen and then reacting.

I am biased (having been flagging for 20+ years) so take my view with the proverbial pinch of salt.

[JimW]

As a Post Chief I really enjoy getting people past their "Assessments". Not too much "KASE" and more observation (on my part) and attitude (on their part).

Of course there is a balance to be struck between rushing for a grade and getting experience. The scheme was designed to make that balance by the number of attendance signatures, assessment signatures and training. If you have clocked those up, feel free to go for the grade. Equally, if you want to wait until you pass some internal threshold, that's fine.

Above all, don't forget to enjoy yourself and the company of those who share (at least some of) your sporting views.

Regards

Jim

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

It has been said before, so I'll say it again. Flagging is not an "also ran" job but probably the best one on the bank and one of the most important because you are communicating with the drivers throughout - rather than waiting for something to happen and then reacting.

I am biased (having been flagging for 20+ years) so take my view with the proverbial pinch of salt.

Couldn't agree more Shelagh but I wish you wouldn't keep telling people. The more there are that think flagging is not for them the better my chances of getting to do plenty of it.

BTW it may just be me but I find when I'm just standing there waiting for something to happen I can easily lose track of what's going on and nod off (well perhaps not quite ). But when I'm flagging it's much easier to keep track....well you have to if you don't want to get the flags wrong too often.

Steve

[Shelagh]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

Couldn't agree more Shelagh but I wish you wouldn't keep telling people. The more there are that think flagging is not for them the better my chances of getting to do plenty of it.

BTW it may just be me but I find when I'm just standing there waiting for something to happen I can easily lose track of what's going on and nod off (well perhaps not quite ). But when I'm flagging it's much easier to keep track....well you have to if you don't want to get the flags wrong too often.

Steve

Sorry, Steve, am I letting the cat out of the bag? There is always a need for flaggies - just try talking on the phone at Donington while waving any number of flags at the same time, so you shouldn't have to worry about being needed!

Plus - as I know from experience - it is still possible to nod off whilst flagging. Depends on the quality of the racing! And don't get me started on "wrong" flags.... Why do you always have the wrong one in your hand?

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by JimW

Equally, if you want to wait until you pass some internal threshold, that's fine.

Very elegant description

[theracegypsy]

@Slipstick, as an Examining Post Chief I will say you still go for it.

I have dealt with trainees before who are not really able to fully do incident work efficiently for physical reasons.

Suggest you e:mail Chris Hobson, and then talk to your club's grading officer if you feel you are in that category. As the MSA "owner" of the grading scheme, Chris is able to allow exemptions where necessary.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by BeccaBlue

I have enough days to upgrade from trainee track marshal this weekend.

Do you mean enough days "on paper" or enough days for you personally? There is possibly a difference. Make sure you are happy! As said before, would you be happy leading/coaching a trainee, or what would you do in the event of being posted (along with your trainee) a zillion yards from the team and a car coming in on fire and four wheels skywards?

Clearly everyone is different - for instance in my case (in those days one needed 10 sigs for upgrade) I graded Trainee to Track at 25 days, and Track to Exp Track at around another 100 days and 4 years. That was about right for me but maybe not right for others.

Originally Posted by BeccaBlue

So what does getting an upgrade signature involve?

There are two needed - Flags and Incident.

As said - you need to tell the Chief Marshal before the meeting in question, so they can set you up on a post that is being looked after by and Examining Post Chief. This is true for both types of assessment. After each assessment (which have to be seperate days) the ExPc will either sign off the assessment in your book, or give you feedback and pointers on what is needed to improve next time should you not succeed. Do not, under any circumstances, think of this as a failure, but just simply as a bit of guidance on that great learning/experience curve we are all on. The ExPC will only do this to make you an even better marshal than you already are!

Originally Posted by BeccaBlue

Will there be questions? Should I be scared? Will money need to change hands?

In order.....Yes! No! Hmmm maybe, or sticky buns! LOL!

Flagging involves you , well, flagging! You'll need to show that your are at least competant with the use of flags, understand what the flags are for, flag sectors, and understand the basic Red Flag and SC rules. I think it is also useful to show an understanding of the S/L Flags which are different to post flags. The ExOb will watch you and probably ask for feedback from the flaggie you are partnered with.

Incident is an assessment of your ability on incident side, unless you already have an incident signed by an ExOb them you will really need an incident to happen on circuit (a complete lottery that part of the grading scheme). The ExOb will probably ask for feedback from the I/O or others on post.

Remember that marshalling isn't always about running about dealing with mashed and broken cars. It is also very much about more mundane "housekeeping" like oil, track inspection etc. It is also very much about teamwork, attitude, self discipline and interpersonal skills. So keep these in mind as well.

Very best of luck indeed

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

...these days you can't be a flag marshal without going through Track and Experienced grade...

Err... You can't be upgraded to flag without going through the grades you mention. But you can flag.

My greatest friend is a flaggie, has done it at Oulton Park for at least eight years to my certain knowledge, probably longer, and regularly 'trains' new flags in the noble art.

He's ungraded. Massive experience. More KASE than the luggage terminal at Heathrow and also does post chief, when asked. And yet he is unbadged, nor gives a jot about upgrading. And he's not the only one. The point is he is hugely respected, and respect doesn't come from a piece of coloured cloth.

Second point: In the "old" signature system my rule of thumb was that it took about 25 attendances before you got the complete 10 signatures for upgrade. (These were not attendance sigs. They were 'activity' sigs., and it took a while to get races where you actually did something under your belt; and every sig. was from an XPC.)

I still suggest to people that 25 attendances - at each level - should be roughly the sort of number that suggests a reasonable level of competence, always overruled by your own internal threshold, to quote Jim's elegant turn of phrase.

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Err... You can't be upgraded to flag without going through the grades you mention. But you can flag.

You can indeed flag and fortunately I am fairly often allowed to. But yes you're right what I should have said was that you can't be officially graded as a Flag Marshal without going through the grades.

But the reason I'd find the grade useful is that I like marshalling at several circuits with a variety of clubs and therefore many different Chief Marshals. It might take quite a while before they all know whether they can trust me or not and I was thinking that having a grade other than "Trainee" might help.

Steve

[Woolley]

Just put 'flag' on your volunteering form.

I've long since given up bothering to get the badge to go with a duty I've been performing for years. I lost the original full card, got another one, the grade got disbanded, reappeared again with different criteria... Lost the will now.

I also have no wish (or skill) to be PC, so if I haven't got the grade below it's harder to be persuaded in that direction!

[yellowspanner]

Originally Posted by numbersix

The point is he is hugely respected, and respect doesn't come from a piece of coloured cloth.

A very relevant point - respect is something you earn, not something you are given just by the fact you have a certain badge.

[Shelagh]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I've long since given up bothering to get the badge to go with a duty I've been performing for years.

I have the same opinion for doing Assembly or other duties off the bank. As an "Experienced" marshal do I really need a particular colour badge/grade for doing a "specialist" job?

Mind you, I'd give my right arm for a gold badge but know I have a long, long while to go for that sort of honour - if ever. You only have to look at the folks who have one to realise what it takes and to wonder why some people haven't actually got one. Makes you feel very 'umble, guv.

[Steve Fox]

Well done becca on your upgrade.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

Mind you, I'd give my right arm for a gold badge but know I have a long, long while to go for that sort of honour.

I'm not sure a Gold Badge exists in the current grading structure.

I understand there may be moves afoot to try to reintroduce it though.