Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Classic Cars Monthly Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Historic Racing Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 6 Oct 2017, 12:37 (Ref:3772279)   #16
Dave Brand
Veteran
 
Dave Brand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
Hadfield, Derbyshire (UK)
Posts: 6,347
Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker View Post
I reckon so long as you know what colour the rule book is you ought to be OK......
The Brown Book?
Dave Brand is offline  
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person.
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 08:34 (Ref:3864935)   #17
Heightswitch
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
England
Oop Norf
Posts: 330
Heightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHeightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
These new rules are worrying me a little.. so much so that I feel an approach is needed to the MUK / FIA.. I wonder what their position is regarding the discrimination toward 75% of the male population who have some form of colour blindness.. red / green being the most common..

I have been thinking a lot about this and the fact that legally the MUK must be prepared to make reasonable adjustments to counter discrimination....

I have always been OK differentiating primary Red and green and seeing flags but they are now saying that with the use of light boxes there is a need to pass a colour test and achieve a minimum score...

It strikes me that the MUK can make a very simple adjustment which in my mind won't cost any money to implement and will remove any issue with colour blind drivers completely...

We all know the flag signals (well most of us do so consider this....

Red. Is always held out (not waved) to indicate session stopped
Yellows are waved... Yellow lights Flashed.... But we can see yellow!!
Blues.. Flash (we have no issue with Blue)
Green is generally waved as a flag but left fixed illuminated as a light...

The solution is very simple... Just make the RED light a permanently immuminated light... All others Flash!!! That way us colour impaired folk will see either a green flashing light which we know is flashing so even if we think it is Red we know it is Green.. and when we see a Red fixed light which we might think is green, We will know it is Red...

No changes required to any flags, or light boxes!!

I wonder if the MUK / FIA have even considered this before again placing barriers in the way of Blokes who just want to go racing.. I say Blokes because genetically colour impairment affects 75% of men to a greater or lesser degree!!

This years medical remains a worry to me. !!
Heightswitch is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 10:22 (Ref:3864951)   #18
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,219
MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!
I always understood colour deficiency affected c. 10% of males
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/colour-vision-deficiency/
but moving on....

it may not be anything like the problem you think it is. Dr Mark Green of Motor Racing Medics has been working with MUK on this subject since way back last year, and has developed an LED lightbox test which MUK recognise as a valid replacement if one cannot pass the Ishiwara book tests.
I can only pass 3 of Ishiwara (not the 24 required) but the lightbox was not a problem. Once the colour test has been passed it is logged on the MUK system and you do not have to re-take it annually.
Try not to worry but I do recommend you give MSM a call. Don't forget you don't have to go to Gatwick as they run a clinic at Autosport in the New Year on a pre-booking basis.
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 18:58 (Ref:3865066)   #19
Alan Morgan
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Alan Morgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Addlestone, Surrey
Posts: 1,007
Alan Morgan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heightswitch View Post
These new rules are worrying me a little.. so much so that I feel an approach is needed to the MUK / FIA.. I wonder what their position is regarding the discrimination toward 75% of the male population who have some form of colour blindness.. red / green being the most common..

I have been thinking a lot about this and the fact that legally the MUK must be prepared to make reasonable adjustments to counter discrimination....

I have always been OK differentiating primary Red and green and seeing flags but they are now saying that with the use of light boxes there is a need to pass a colour test and achieve a minimum score...

It strikes me that the MUK can make a very simple adjustment which in my mind won't cost any money to implement and will remove any issue with colour blind drivers completely...

We all know the flag signals (well most of us do so consider this....

Red. Is always held out (not waved) to indicate session stopped
Yellows are waved... Yellow lights Flashed.... But we can see yellow!!
Blues.. Flash (we have no issue with Blue)
Green is generally waved as a flag but left fixed illuminated as a light...

The solution is very simple... Just make the RED light a permanently immuminated light... All others Flash!!! That way us colour impaired folk will see either a green flashing light which we know is flashing so even if we think it is Red we know it is Green.. and when we see a Red fixed light which we might think is green, We will know it is Red...

No changes required to any flags, or light boxes!!

I wonder if the MUK / FIA have even considered this before again placing barriers in the way of Blokes who just want to go racing.. I say Blokes because genetically colour impairment affects 75% of men to a greater or lesser degree!!

This years medical remains a worry to me. !!
Wise words mate... We have race licence medicals at the Historic FF2000 AGM every year. A driver who passed last year failed this time, even though the criteria were the same. He now has to do the Motor Racing Medics lightbox test. He's been racing for many years and is the least likely guy to have a silly accident. I hope he passes (I'm pretty sure he will) but it might be something for Motorsport UK to look at if they really want motorsport to be more accessible.
Alan Morgan is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 20:09 (Ref:3865072)   #20
grantp
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,675
grantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Maybe it's time to play the discrimination card.

After all there is no reason at all why the lights system should not be changed to make it more inclusive.
grantp is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 22:15 (Ref:3865107)   #21
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,967
wnut has a real shot at the podium!wnut has a real shot at the podium!wnut has a real shot at the podium!wnut has a real shot at the podium!wnut has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heightswitch View Post
These new rules are worrying me a little.. so much so that I feel an approach is needed to the MUK / FIA.. I wonder what their position is regarding the discrimination toward 75% of the male population who have some form of colour blindness.. red / green being the most common..

I have been thinking a lot about this and the fact that legally the MUK must be prepared to make reasonable adjustments to counter discrimination....

I have always been OK differentiating primary Red and green and seeing flags but they are now saying that with the use of light boxes there is a need to pass a colour test and achieve a minimum score...

It strikes me that the MUK can make a very simple adjustment which in my mind won't cost any money to implement and will remove any issue with colour blind drivers completely...

We all know the flag signals (well most of us do so consider this....

Red. Is always held out (not waved) to indicate session stopped
Yellows are waved... Yellow lights Flashed.... But we can see yellow!!
Blues.. Flash (we have no issue with Blue)
Green is generally waved as a flag but left fixed illuminated as a light...

The solution is very simple... Just make the RED light a permanently immuminated light... All others Flash!!! That way us colour impaired folk will see either a green flashing light which we know is flashing so even if we think it is Red we know it is Green.. and when we see a Red fixed light which we might think is green, We will know it is Red...

No changes required to any flags, or light boxes!!

I wonder if the MUK / FIA have even considered this before again placing barriers in the way of Blokes who just want to go racing.. I say Blokes because genetically colour impairment affects 75% of men to a greater or lesser degree!!

This years medical remains a worry to me. !!

Great thinking, maybe the administrators need to pass an IQ test before they are allowed to take office, and maybe an oath that they are required to facilitate participation in racing.


Could also leave a dirty great black X in the middle of the red light box to indicate that the track is red flagged.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Nov 2018, 09:02 (Ref:3865205)   #22
one-two
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 204
one-two should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I am amazed at the suggestion that 75% of the male population has some form of colourblindness. A quick google suggests it's more like 8%. What am I, or the poster who made the suggestion, missing? A decimal point, perhaps?
one-two is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Nov 2018, 09:46 (Ref:3865208)   #23
oneofapair
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 133
oneofapair should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
An 18 year old could pass the 2016 test under the requirements back then,and then has until reaching 40 years or so( self declaration) filling in licence application before he reaches the need to have medical each year.

Is that age discrimination?
oneofapair is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Nov 2018, 14:50 (Ref:3865235)   #24
GregUK
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 172
GregUK should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Like many men, I have a red/green defect.

In my latter year's of racing, I learned how to 'trick' the Ishihara Test (the pages of coloured dots) - knowing I had the defect, I looked behind the obvious answer and generally did OK.

In the early days, they used to have the RAC quack wave flags around at Belgrade Square.

The only time I have ever had an issue with colour vision was on the footplate of a train. On a particularly straight and level stretch of track outside York the block signalling could be seen numerous sections into the distance. The driver could see that the furthest signal was green - I could see the light but couldn't tell its colour. Not being able to identify a 24w bulb at about 5 miles has never really caused me a problem!
GregUK is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Nov 2018, 19:55 (Ref:3866157)   #25
Heightswitch
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
England
Oop Norf
Posts: 330
Heightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHeightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Great thinking, maybe the administrators need to pass an IQ test before they are allowed to take office, and maybe an oath that they are required to facilitate participation in racing.


Could also leave a dirty great black X in the middle of the red light box to indicate that the track is red flagged.
Yep. as you say whichever way the MUK would like to do it is fine with me but the principle point is that it is a virtually zero cost item which could be implemented which will remove all issues regarding colour impairment. as the more google orientated folk have pointed out it is approx 8% not 75 but regardless the sentiment is the same... The adoption of LED light boxes should make it extremely simple to add a symbol or just have a permanently illuminated red.. Just as a flag signal would be displayed??

The MUK it seems is happy for clubs to have to spend a fortune on re-branding surely this would make things more inclusive for everyone, add clarity to everyone..worst case being the need for a new flag with a symbol incorporated.. Perhaps as an alternative the Green flag / or light box with the national speed limit sign

It seems as usual people are devising work around tests to fall back on when the std tests cannot be passed. There should be absolutely no need for such tests when the whole issue can be eliminated without any difficulty!

Maybe these thoughts and comments are just far to simple for the higher echelons of the motorsport world to consider.... !!

I wonder what the Chair of the MUK would think.

Last edited by Heightswitch; 26 Nov 2018 at 20:01.
Heightswitch is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Nov 2018, 19:59 (Ref:3866160)   #26
Heightswitch
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
England
Oop Norf
Posts: 330
Heightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHeightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregUK View Post
Like many men, I have a red/green defect.

In my latter year's of racing, I learned how to 'trick' the Ishihara Test (the pages of coloured dots) - knowing I had the defect, I looked behind the obvious answer and generally did OK.

In the early days, they used to have the RAC quack wave flags around at Belgrade Square.

The only time I have ever had an issue with colour vision was on the footplate of a train. On a particularly straight and level stretch of track outside York the block signalling could be seen numerous sections into the distance. The driver could see that the furthest signal was green - I could see the light but couldn't tell its colour. Not being able to identify a 24w bulb at about 5 miles has never really caused me a problem!
I agree whole heartedly.. It rarely causes me an issue. Again it is probably down to some quack re-writing a set of old rules without much thought for the real world.
Heightswitch is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Nov 2018, 21:21 (Ref:3866182)   #27
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,219
MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!MGDavid has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heightswitch View Post
I agree whole heartedly.. It rarely causes me an issue. Again it is probably down to some quack re-writing a set of old rules without much thought for the real world.
It only needs to cause an issue once, at the wrong time and place, and somebody could so easily be killed. AIUI the tests have been reviewed in recognition that LED light panels can look a bit different from coloured cloth flags. Again AIUI this has come from the FIA and MUK are not to blame - if blame needs to be apportioned - for introducing stricter colour vision testing. It would also not be sensible for MUK to implement their own variations of flag signals as that would be totally confusing for the many drivers that race both in the UK and abroad.
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Old 27 Nov 2018, 15:49 (Ref:3866343)   #28
Rikki Cann
Subscriber
Racer
 
Rikki Cann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
England
Rochford Essex
Posts: 218
Rikki Cann should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
[QUOTE=GORDON STREETER;3772103]
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneofapair View Post
Over twenty plus years I have never had a Marshal flag or light recognition problem ! QUOTE]


I started racing in 1969 and have had a few yellow flag problems, like a few of us have had !!
Same here Gord, I started in 1974 (being the youngster here) all I see now is black flags
Rikki Cann is offline  
__________________
Aston Martin V8 "Rose"
Quote
Old 27 Nov 2018, 18:24 (Ref:3866395)   #29
delta
Subscriber
Veteran
 
delta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United Kingdom
Reading UK
Posts: 6,855
delta should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddelta should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddelta should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
[QUOTE=Rikki Cann;3866343]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER View Post

Same here Gord, I started in 1974 (being the youngster here) all I see now is black flags
Track limits for me. What colour is that one. Anyway just had e mail from MSA and my new licence is on its way. Happy days.
delta is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Nov 2018, 14:10 (Ref:3866605)   #30
Heightswitch
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
England
Oop Norf
Posts: 330
Heightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHeightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid

Quote:
Originally Posted by MGDavid View Post
It only needs to cause an issue once, at the wrong time and place, and somebody could so easily be killed. AIUI the tests have been reviewed in recognition that LED light panels can look a bit different from coloured cloth flags. Again AIUI this has come from the FIA and MUK are not to blame - if blame needs to be apportioned - for introducing stricter colour vision testing. It would also not be sensible for MUK to implement their own variations of flag signals as that would be totally confusing for the many drivers that race both in the UK and abroad.
It seems that the FIA then have wrongly introduced the light boxes? .. Red light should be permanently illuminated as per the original flag signal.. as long as this is the case and all other lights flash then there is no problem !!
Heightswitch is offline  
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Medicals & colour vision MGDavid Racers Forum 11 14 May 2006 22:45
Gordon Kirby's Inside Track/chris Pook's Vision Taking Shape ĦAs-de-mim! ChampCar World Series 31 12 Feb 2003 11:33
Speed Vision Earnhardt seatbelt pic Ken NASCAR & Stock Car Racing 6 14 Jun 2001 23:45
night vision marcus Sportscar & GT Racing 5 24 Jun 2000 01:04


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2018 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.