Montoya should LEAVE Mclaren, sooner or later..

freud · 12 Jun 2005, 23:24 (Ref:1326861)

Not to take anything away from Kimi's win at the canadian GP, I was shocked to see the way JPM was treated by Mclaren during the race.

Although he was leading the GP, he was not called in to pit before Kimi. Mclaren's engineers know it well that once your driver has not gotten into the pit, when the safety car is out, your race is wrecked. Yet Mclaren in a very sadistic way decided to leave JPM on track and call Kimi in.

Regardless of what happened at the canadian GP, Montoya does not seem to be happy or satisfied with his position at Mclaren. The extremely professional and corporate-like environment of Mclaren is completely antagonistic to his attitude towards racing. Montoya is a talker, perhaps he talks a bit too much to the liking of his bosses. While Kimi has been quietly working with the Mclaren bosses and engineers for all these years, he has also made a special bond with Ron Dennis. Not that Ron Dennis like 'sheeps' in the mould of Hakkinen or Raikonnen, its just that Ron Dennis is a tough nut and mostly does not get along well with tough headstrong characters like DC or JPM (or MS..).

In general, in my opinion, JPM is a complete mis-fit within the current framework of Mclaren. The heirarchy, dominated by an arrogant person like Ron Dennis, just cannot provide JPM with the right environment to show and prove his talents.. I doubt if any team in F1 can (may be with the exception of Williams). I bet my bottom penny that right now JPM is kicking himself not to be a part of Williams. JPM made an emotional miscalculation. He wrongly thought that FW and PH were favoring Ralf Schumacher while that was not the case. I tell you Mr. Montoya.. Mclaren is favoring Kimi and you know why... because they like Kimi. Period. You are an outsider at Mclaren.

My advise to JPM.. leave Mclaren sooner than later. Look for other avenues.. BAR is getting better, Williams might be interested, Renault will probably not have Fisi next year...

Kicking-back · 12 Jun 2005, 23:27 (Ref:1326862)

I think you're talking absolute nonsense.

JPM was hoisted by his own petard today, as he has been all season really.

His McLaren drive is a better prospect than anything else on the grid realistically.

It will come good!

freud · 12 Jun 2005, 23:38 (Ref:1326869)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

It will come good!

I dont think so. Its obvious that both Mclaren and Mercedez are totally focused upon Kimi. JPM is being treated like a role-player fo Kimi and the team, sort of like DC was for Hakkinen. Since Kimi is only approximately 20 points away from Alonso, Ron Dennis should be very keen on seeing Kimi dominate the summer GP's and get as close to Alonso as possible.

2005 is already over for JPM (i.e. him going for the title).

Menelaos · 12 Jun 2005, 23:42 (Ref:1326872)

JPM destroyed his own effort when he hurt his arm. After all this, I think it's normal that a team will "help" their driver who's going for the title. I don't like teams who have 1st/2nd drivers (like Ferrari), but McLaren, Renault, Williams: they all start with two equal drivers. But it's only normal that Renault wants Alonso to win and McLaren wants KR to win.

Logrence · 12 Jun 2005, 23:43 (Ref:1326873)

You've come out with a lovely lot of twaddle there. Montoya wrecked his own race and needed no help from McLaren who really don't have team orders real - active or subversive.

It would be nice to think that Juan-Pablo had been screwed over the team - makes him look a little less silly, but I just don't think that's the case. As for him leaving the team, that would be the worse thing he could do - especially when they have the best car at the moment.

Kirk · 12 Jun 2005, 23:44 (Ref:1326875)

I agree KB. As a team McLaren has their act together and is a top ride right now. Williams is going through a tough period both on and off the track and I'm certain JPM has no regrets about leaving when he did. But he is not going to be handed the top spot at McLaren (if there even is such a thing at McLaren) ... and I'm certain he knew going in that Kimi is well liked there. They also had a good shot at a 1-2 finish today, but for that black flag incident. Things could be much worse for JPM and I think he is well aware of that fact.

freud · 12 Jun 2005, 23:51 (Ref:1326882)

I think what's happening to JPM right now is the worst case scenario for any f1 driver who wants to win a f1 title..

- He's driving the best car
- Somehow he does not get the points under his belt
- His teammate has the points, is going for the title and is dominating him
- His team makes him look like an idiot on track; set up issues, pitstops, exits.. blah blah

JPM is quickly becoming or being made to become the 'next' DC at Mclaren... i.e. a role-player not a contender. I believe that's a very tough situation for him..

JeremySmith · 13 Jun 2005, 00:06 (Ref:1326894)

I think that JPM could not be with a better team McLaren is a very solid team IMHO, he made a couple of mistakes today which shows that he is human, and "muppet" as someone called him is very disingenuous thing to say. You know Ron Dennis has been doing this for a long time and I think his choice of drivers is always pretty much on the money, apart from Michael Andretti that is. JPM will come good, give the man a chance! He is a real racer which is why I like him.

Logrence · 13 Jun 2005, 01:54 (Ref:1326928)

Quote:

Originally Posted by freud

I think what's happening to JPM right now is the worst case scenario for any f1 driver who wants to win a f1 title..

- He's driving the best car
- Somehow he does not get the points under his belt
- His teammate has the points, is going for the title and is dominating him
- His team makes him look like an idiot on track; set up issues, pitstops, exits.. blah blah

JPM is quickly becoming or being made to become the 'next' DC at Mclaren... i.e. a role-player not a contender. I believe that's a very tough situation for him..

He's been with McLaren for 8 races, not 8 years - not quite long enough to become anything, really.

DavidStHubbins · 13 Jun 2005, 03:53 (Ref:1326975)

I'd like to know why Montoya was not brought in that lap - seemed to precipitate the later madness with the lights and passing cars under safety car etc. Before that though he was driving a storming race! He'd be a fool to leave Macca now - oh wait...

**John Turner** · 13 Jun 2005, 07:55 (Ref:1327080)

I'm a bit confused - I thought Mclaren did call JPM in first, but that he failed to hear the message properly. Has that version of events changed?

I think it far too early for him to think about moving on. The Mclaren is pretty much the quickest thing out there and a proven race winner in the hands of Kimi. JPM really needs to get his head in gear sufficiently to match his known great pace.

**Adam43** · 13 Jun 2005, 08:07 (Ref:1327093)

I think this thread has been started from a complete misreading of the situation. Things aren't going well for Montoya at the moment, but think about the races we've had, consider the mototennis accident and what has actually happened. He seems quite happen, everyone in the team seems happy with him.

One driver in a team will always be doing better than another, whether that be throw skill or the fall of events. Yet the first reason behind any consideration as to the difference is neither of these!

He's only been with McLaren for 8 races, statistically quite low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Turner

I'm a bit confused - I thought Mclaren did call JPM in first, but that he failed to hear the message properly. Has that version of events changed?

Yes that is what happened.

Surely before developing any theory it is best to look into it first.

The pit call aspect is being discussed here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70213

Swiss · 13 Jun 2005, 09:09 (Ref:1327152)

I agree with Adam, this is still early days for Montoya at McLaren and its to be expected that there will be some settling in issues. There always when you join a new team no matter how experienced and telented you and the people around you are.

Should Montoya change teams ? Why ?? McLaren appear to have a package that is getting stronger and stronger and will more than likely be the dominant package for the rest of the season. Montoya knew what he was getting himself into, all teams have their own culture thats clear to see down the pit lane, McLarens culture is well known and their key personnel have not changed for a few years now so Montoya would have known all this.

As to what happened in the race ? There will always be questions and conjecture, mistakes happen and frequently as its a high pressure environment. For all the stories of strategy and technology helping teams there are just as many for when it goes wrong for whatever reason. Having spoken to personnel in Williams and Jordan I have heard enough funny stories of such incidents over the years.

McLaren are a well oiled professional team and will make decisions that support the team as a whole, remember their primary concern is winning the manufacturers title and keeping their sponsors happy. Creating discord by manipulation of drivers would not achieve those aims. Both drivers are given a fair shot of winning the drivers title by McLaren and its only later in the season when and if one has a clearer advantage in the Drivers Championship that you would a expect a team, any team to play to that advantage.

Montoya is in an environment now where he can learn to control his raw emotional talent blending it with the logical and clear thought that McLaren have and come out as a driver that drives to the percentages but can pull out audacious drives and moves as and when required.

Glen · 13 Jun 2005, 09:11 (Ref:1327153)

In the cold light of day Montoya might agree that Kimi should have been called in first. The only debate really should be over the way that the team decides to achieve this.

If the situations in the WDC were reversed McLaren would have done the opposite thing.

The team have said that he didn't hear the call, that they didn't make the call, and that he had gone past the pit entry by the time they called him. If the situation was black and white they wouldn't be spinning three different versions.

**Adam43** · 13 Jun 2005, 10:20 (Ref:1327200)

Nah, I disagree if they were trying to lie they would make sure their lie was consistent. Perhaps they just didn't think they had to hide anything and so didn't make things crystal clear. That is just as valid as a saying the different versions was due to lies.

Kicking-back · 13 Jun 2005, 10:21 (Ref:1327202)

The simple fact is - most drivers would want to be in a McLaren and have Ron Dennis as their boss.

Including Montoya.

**John Turner** · 13 Jun 2005, 10:32 (Ref:1327217)

Yep, K-b, spot on - says it all really!

Glen · 13 Jun 2005, 10:57 (Ref:1327230)

These days they don't have to have tyres warm and ready - I don't quite understand why the driver wouldn't assert himself and come into the pit anyway, considering that the timing of the Safety Car was such that to stop or not was a no-brainer.

I also don't go alog with the consistent lie theory - it is not uncommon to spin conflicting and overlapping versions of the same thing in order to muddy the debate. Not that it matters one bit really - like I've said elsewhere I just don't like the whiff of disingenuousness (if indeed that is word!).

Glen · 13 Jun 2005, 11:00 (Ref:1327234)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

The simple fact is - most drivers would want to be in a McLaren and have Ron Dennis as their boss.

Including Montoya.

I agree with that too - Montoya will wake up and realise that the team would have done the same for him were the Championship situations reversed.

Doesn't mean that Ron Dennis is perfect though! Every time McLaren try and claim some sort of moral high ground over the Ferrari way, they make themselves look a little bit silly - most fans know that multi-million dollar decisions like this don't get made on a fair-play basis, so why bother with the pretence? Keeps us all amused I suppose!

Menelaos · 13 Jun 2005, 12:40 (Ref:1327269)

I don't want to defend anyone, but it's totally fair to help the one who's leading. What is NOT fair is to help someone from the beginning of the season, and that's why I want McLaren (or Williams, or even Renault) over Ferrari to win. It's obvious that Renault must now help alonso, but it would be unfair if that was decided before the first gp of the season - or even right after that one...

Lucylu · 13 Jun 2005, 13:12 (Ref:1327293)

At least Ferrari make it clear there have a 1/2 driver set up in there team - Mclaren are sneaky about it.. they favour Kimi and it is clear to see! JPM is the next DC! I think he should leave Mclaren..ok they have a fast car but they have to be the most boring F1 team out there..doesnt suit JPM!
he hasnt helped his championship this year but I still think he's a good racer and could win it sometime..perhapes as a renualt driver next year..

twig · 13 Jun 2005, 13:31 (Ref:1327312)

Its a bit silly to say that McLaren are the most boring team out there - even though their white, black and silver colours suggest you are correct, McLaren is well known to have a fantastic ability to make everyone in the team feel happy.

Who cares about the image of happiness when you can have the real happiness inside the team.

Silk Cut Jaguar · 13 Jun 2005, 13:32 (Ref:1327314)

McLaren don't favour either driver, JPM either heard the call to late or the call didn't come in time for him to pit. These things happen when safety cars are deployed, just a side of motor racing.

As for the rest of the race, Montoya got himself black flagged by ignoring the red light. Nobody to blame but himself for that one I'm afraid. Yes, his crew chief should have reminded him but as a driver Montoya should be aware of the pitlane regulations, especially ones as crucial as "red means stop".

Montoya would be a fool to leave McLaren, he gets equal equipment as Kimi and was leading the race until it all went pear shaped.

Menelaos · 13 Jun 2005, 13:59 (Ref:1327335)

I think if next year Montoya is 20 points ahead of Kimi he will be the one to get the support. And if DC were 20 points ahead of Kimi or Mika, he would be their favorite that season. The difference between McLaren or Williams and Ferrari is that Ferrari decides who's their 1st driver beforehand, while McLaren and Williams help the one who's doing better in that season.

Lucylu · 13 Jun 2005, 15:41 (Ref:1327423)

Mclaren are boring..not only do there colours suggest that but the whole image of the team does..perhapes there is real happiness inside the team but it certainly doesnt come across that way
and it is clear to me the Ron Dennis does favour the Finns - both of them. over his other drivers

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