Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Australasian Touring Cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 21 Oct 2019, 04:27 (Ref:3935997)   #1
PVDA
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Australia
Melbourne
Posts: 3,009
PVDA should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridPVDA should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridPVDA should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
How to solve the Safety Car issues

Was going to post this in the Bathurst thread but it would get lost in the whole penalty thing going on at the moment.

As a person who works on track during Safety Car incidents I believe I am qualified to comment on this subject unlike may keyboard warriors out here in cyber space.

At the AASA sanctioned AMRS Wakefield round yesterday one of the GT-1 cars binned it into the gravel trap at turn 2, a Code 40 (cars simply use the Pit Lane limiter) was called using a count down on the Race Management Channel and by the end of the count down all cars were expected to have slowed to 40 under a full course yellow situation.

The car was quickly extricated from the gravel and sent on his way and once the Safety & Recovery vehicles that responded had safely cleared the circuit restored to Green after a short count down on the Race Management channel.

I'm pretty sure the cars did less than a full lap at 40 km/h, under a normal Safety Car deployment it would've been 2-3 laps.

I was in Race Control coordinating the Emergency response to this by radio with the two vehicles responded and discussed this with my team members who responded to the incident at the end of the days racing and all commented how much safer they felt knowing the cars were doing 40 everywhere and not speeding past like they would under Safety Car.

It also allowed immediate response of the two vehicles as the cars immediately slowed to 40 and were not racing around to catch the Safety Car train so it also improves driver safety with faster responses as we do not need to wait for the field to slow down to get out there.

Everyone needs to forget about the consequences to the results for individual cars, drivers or teams, this MUST be looked at from the perspective of MARSHAL & DRIVER SAFETY only.

There has already been too many near misses with marshals under Safety Car to not bring in either a Code 40 or Code 60 immediately.

Oh, one car was penalised with a Drive Through for not slowing quickly enough to 40 compared with other cars around him yesterday.

Here is a link to the Code 40 period of the GT-1 race at the AMRS round at Wakefield yesterday from the Blendline TV's live stream. https://youtu.be/9_SxuXbzgS8?t=11609
PVDA is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Oct 2019, 04:34 (Ref:3935998)   #2
tobyobi
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 83
tobyobi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A virtual safety car (under whichever implementation you want to take) makes sense, but is not a complete replacement for the safety car itself.

You may need to bunch the field up to have space to work
You may need to be able to stop the field behind the safety car in particular circumstances

However it does make sense that such an option should exist.

It makes no sense that (and this isn't just Supercars, look at the BTCC implementation as well) the most unsafe point is when the safety car is called, yet racing is still flat-out for a certain portion of time. Do you look at an option similar to the code 40/60/80 (whatever speed) and have a maximum speed to 'catch' the safety car? It would be above safety car speed, but still below racing speed. It would also stop competitors who pit and then race back to the end of the queue, where marshals might still be working.

F1 do implement similar systems with the whole delta time micro sector thing, but like everything in F1, it's way more complicated than it needs to be.
tobyobi is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Oct 2019, 05:20 (Ref:3936004)   #3
Trevor
Veteran
 
Trevor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 1,497
Trevor should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Good idea Paul
Trevor is offline  
__________________
I reserve the right to arm bears
Quote
Old 21 Oct 2019, 06:06 (Ref:3936008)   #4
Alan52
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Australia
Glenmore Park
Posts: 1,634
Alan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAlan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Obviously they should and could do it.I think they believe the safety car entertainment factor of bunch,green,crash,repeat is attractive to their fan base.I think it turns off more people than it turns on.
Alan52 is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Oct 2019, 06:30 (Ref:3936010)   #5
Forda
Veteran
 
Forda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,069
Forda should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Nice intentions here, however the category adjudicators have had 25+ years to get this system nutted out; and have also just received a $150k windfall on behalf of it still not working properly.

Surely after the Auckland debacle, and yesterday's hoo-ha (including the large financial injection); they might, just might, be able to put some resources towards setting up a fool-proof solution?
Forda is offline  
Quote
Old 21 Oct 2019, 20:35 (Ref:3936134)   #6
Denosaur
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Albania
Australia
Posts: 1,133
Denosaur should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridDenosaur should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Knackers, the biggest issue with your idea being implemented is CAMS or whatever they call themselves today....

Other than that, very well done to the team for pulling off such a great idea!!
Denosaur is offline  
__________________
It's all about speed! Hot, nasty bad-ass speed!!
Velociraptor Performance Industries
Quote
Old 21 Oct 2019, 21:21 (Ref:3936138)   #7
Average Punter
Veteran
 
Average Punter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Australia
a drug store in Wagga
Posts: 1,661
Average Punter should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAverage Punter should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAverage Punter should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Would most current racecars make it up through the Cutting at 40??

Does changing gears cancel the limiter?
Average Punter is offline  
__________________
Punters Beer Fest. Indy 02, Clipsal 03, Winton 04, Paperclip 05, Darwin 06, Oran Park 07, Phillip Island 08, Sandown 09, Townsville 10, Symmons 11, Eastern Creek 12, Winton 13. Townsville 14. Paperclip 15, Sandown 16, Symmons 17, PI 18, The Bend 19
Quote
Old 21 Oct 2019, 23:48 (Ref:3936144)   #8
chavez
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Australia
The Basin, Victoria
Posts: 2,829
chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Punter View Post
Would most current racecars make it up through the Cutting at 40??

Does changing gears cancel the limiter?
Forget rev limiter.

Minimum sector time is the key here.

The dash displays a plus or minus to the required time - just like in F1.
chavez is offline  
__________________
"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979
Quote
Old 22 Oct 2019, 02:23 (Ref:3936161)   #9
Average Punter
Veteran
 
Average Punter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Australia
a drug store in Wagga
Posts: 1,661
Average Punter should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAverage Punter should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAverage Punter should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Sorry chavez, that was directed at PVDA the original poster, who noted that at Wakefield last weekend they used the pit limiters for Code40.

I was suggesting that maybe that wouldn't work at Bathurst
Average Punter is offline  
__________________
Punters Beer Fest. Indy 02, Clipsal 03, Winton 04, Paperclip 05, Darwin 06, Oran Park 07, Phillip Island 08, Sandown 09, Townsville 10, Symmons 11, Eastern Creek 12, Winton 13. Townsville 14. Paperclip 15, Sandown 16, Symmons 17, PI 18, The Bend 19
Quote
Old 22 Oct 2019, 04:43 (Ref:3936166)   #10
Compromised
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 848
Compromised should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Some states have the "slow to 40" for flashing lights/first responder in regards to road cars. A lot of time was put into working out the appropriate passing speed - 40km increased survivability by a large amount.

I agree with the above though - entertainment car, double stacking etc. are dangerous elements of the series that I feel it may be addicted to
Compromised is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Oct 2019, 05:12 (Ref:3936174)   #11
Alan52
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Australia
Glenmore Park
Posts: 1,634
Alan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAlan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denosaur View Post
Knackers, the biggest issue with your idea being implemented is CAMS or whatever they call themselves today....

Other than that, very well done to the team for pulling off such a great idea!!
No the biggest issue is Supercars who I truly believe think they have to dumb down their racing to make it enjoyable to someone with the concentration span of an insect.
Alan52 is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Oct 2019, 12:13 (Ref:3936232)   #12
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by chavez View Post
Minimum sector time is the key here.
No. This is inconsistent. Someone would have to work out a time for each sector and then monitor it, which could still mean they're too fast in the dangerous bit.

Having worked trackside, and also flagged for races using Slow Zones (just one section of the track), Code 60 and VSC, I'm satisfied they do the job of keeping marshals safe and allowing speedy access to a driver in a hazardous situation. And without question, they do the job better than every other method available.

SC doesn't do this for the reasons mentioned earlier - racing back to the start line/pit lane. And it allows for the sort of nonsense we saw at Pukekohe/Bathurst. I haven't seen any situation where bunching the cars up is more useful than running them at slow pace.

At amateur level, it may not be possible to limit the cars properly, at every professional or semi-professional level it is.
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 22 Oct 2019, 20:42 (Ref:3936302)   #13
Tony C
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Gold Coast
Posts: 295
Tony C should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by PVDA View Post
Was going to post this in the Bathurst thread but it would get lost in the whole penalty thing going on at the moment.

As a person who works on track during Safety Car incidents I believe I am qualified to comment on this subject unlike may keyboard warriors out here in cyber space.

At the AASA sanctioned AMRS Wakefield round yesterday one of the GT-1 cars binned it into the gravel trap at turn 2, a Code 40 (cars simply use the Pit Lane limiter) was called using a count down on the Race Management Channel and by the end of the count down all cars were expected to have slowed to 40 under a full course yellow situation.

The car was quickly extricated from the gravel and sent on his way and once the Safety & Recovery vehicles that responded had safely cleared the circuit restored to Green after a short count down on the Race Management channel.

I'm pretty sure the cars did less than a full lap at 40 km/h, under a normal Safety Car deployment it would've been 2-3 laps.

I was in Race Control coordinating the Emergency response to this by radio with the two vehicles responded and discussed this with my team members who responded to the incident at the end of the days racing and all commented how much safer they felt knowing the cars were doing 40 everywhere and not speeding past like they would under Safety Car.

It also allowed immediate response of the two vehicles as the cars immediately slowed to 40 and were not racing around to catch the Safety Car train so it also improves driver safety with faster responses as we do not need to wait for the field to slow down to get out there.

Everyone needs to forget about the consequences to the results for individual cars, drivers or teams, this MUST be looked at from the perspective of MARSHAL & DRIVER SAFETY only.

There has already been too many near misses with marshals under Safety Car to not bring in either a Code 40 or Code 60 immediately.

Oh, one car was penalised with a Drive Through for not slowing quickly enough to 40 compared with other cars around him yesterday.

Here is a link to the Code 40 period of the GT-1 race at the AMRS round at Wakefield yesterday from the Blendline TV's live stream. https://youtu.be/9_SxuXbzgS8?t=11609
Thanks for the intelligent idea, you should be working at CAMS... oops no you shouldnt, you have too much common sense. Seriously this is a good idea, costs nothing, and makes the clean up quicker.

An alternative for tracks like Bathurst which have the steep climb up through the cutting would be to use the pit limiter going past the crash site and 80kph everywhere else. The teams have the capability to do this. Maybe even stipulate that the cars must be in 1st gear, the officials can monitor that one. Exclusion from the race as the penality for not being in 1st gear.
Tony C is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Oct 2019, 03:27 (Ref:3936336)   #14
johnh875
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 2,540
johnh875 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I like it, even for non-critical things like car recovery as in Pukekohe, it would allow quicker response/access, chew up fewer laps in the process and interfere less with the race result.

How many rpm would a Supercar be doing at 40? I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't still make it up the Cutting.
johnh875 is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Oct 2019, 21:18 (Ref:3936469)   #15
275 GTB-4
Veteran
 
275 GTB-4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Australia
South of Sydney NSW, Australie
Posts: 3,499
275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
Some states have the "slow to 40" for flashing lights/first responder in regards to road cars. A lot of time was put into working out the appropriate passing speed - 40km increased survivability by a large amount.
and the trial found to be dangerous on NSW highways...

https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov...ace/index.html
275 GTB-4 is offline  
__________________
The good old days sure seem like a long time ago!!
Quote
Old 23 Oct 2019, 22:11 (Ref:3936476)   #16
Tony C
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Gold Coast
Posts: 295
Tony C should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I love the idea of the full course 40 zone for marshal safety and quick clean up, and no allowance for team tactics to influence the outcome, but at tracks like Bathurst it could cause other problems by trying to get the cars up the cutting while running on the pit limiter. I dont know if they could do it.

I am not exactly sure of the ratios in the current gearbox but based on pre COTF info if the cars were restricted to 1st gear only during FCY at Bathurst, at 5400 RPM they would be doing about 80kph. 5400 would allow them to climb the cutting easily and safely (not stalling). This rev/speed limit could apply to the entire track except where the incident is which could be a 40 zone controlled by the pit limiter.

Would this be an agreeable compromise?
Tony C is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Oct 2019, 12:35 (Ref:3936559)   #17
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Pretty much the way Slow Zones work in WEC. For a selected zone (at Silverstone generally about 5 flag points) code 80 applies, the rest of the track is clear. It's fairly effective. They mix and match this with full course Code 80 or Safety Car as deemed appropriate. Where SC is used, they seem to go FCY first and then put the SC out as the leader arrives.

40k is probably reasonable for club level on a normal circuit, for specialised vehicles it might need to be more. Crevantic 24hrs use Code 60 which I believe is also normal in Holland.
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 25 Oct 2019, 08:34 (Ref:3936658)   #18
Micklegend
Veteran
 
Micklegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Australia
Canberra
Posts: 636
Micklegend should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMicklegend should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I've always been a fan of closing the pits when sc boards come out and then not allowing it to open until at least one flying lap is completed. I'd also think that limiting one car per boom to pit at a time reduces the double stack issue. It still condenses the field but results in the cars coming back to the track in the closest order possible to how they left it, save for what has to be done in the pits.
If they want to short fill to get track position then so be it, at least it rids us of the current dramas.
Micklegend is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Oct 2019, 08:48 (Ref:3936660)   #19
Alan52
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Australia
Glenmore Park
Posts: 1,634
Alan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAlan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micklegend View Post
I've always been a fan of closing the pits when sc boards come out and then not allowing it to open until at least one flying lap is completed. I'd also think that limiting one car per boom to pit at a time reduces the double stack issue. It still condenses the field but results in the cars coming back to the track in the closest order possible to how they left it, save for what has to be done in the pits.
If they want to short fill to get track position then so be it, at least it rids us of the current dramas.
A second order issue.The problem will be best solved by having solutions where the safety car hardly ever needs to come out.
As far as closing the pits it was already shown that it stops tactical options as everyone needs to make sure they refuel as soon as possible to avoid being trapped let alone the possibility of cars running dry during safety car.
Alan52 is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Oct 2019, 22:51 (Ref:3936984)   #20
275 GTB-4
Veteran
 
275 GTB-4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Australia
South of Sydney NSW, Australie
Posts: 3,499
275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan52 View Post
A second order issue.The problem will be best solved by having solutions where the safety car hardly ever needs to come out.
As far as closing the pits it was already shown that it stops tactical options as everyone needs to make sure they refuel as soon as possible to avoid being trapped let alone the possibility of cars running dry during safety car.
Right on!!

Closing Pits? Not to mention dangerous medical or mechanical failures NOT being addressed swiftly...
275 GTB-4 is offline  
__________________
The good old days sure seem like a long time ago!!
Quote
Old 29 Oct 2019, 08:30 (Ref:3937443)   #21
Forda
Veteran
 
Forda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,069
Forda should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Supercars & CAMS to review safety cars (as well as team orders) for the 2020 season.

Mr Seamer: “Everything will get thrown into the pot and we'll go through all of those ideas as part of the process of what we might want to do differently or improve next year."

https://www.supercars.com/news/champ...m-orders-rule/
Forda is offline  
Quote
Old 31 Oct 2019, 10:40 (Ref:3937784)   #22
McLean Fan
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Australia
Currumbin
Posts: 121
McLean Fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
“Everything will get thrown into the pot and we'll go through all of those ideas as part of the process of what we might want to do differently or improve next year.", chortled Seamer, cluelessly.
“One things for sure”, he added, grinning like a retard, “The cornerstones of our success will remain : Supercar Chaplain, the National Anthem, and Tim Schenken’s continuous ineptitude.”
McLean Fan is offline  
Quote
Old 31 Oct 2019, 13:04 (Ref:3937801)   #23
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
There's always the possibility of making them obey the flags under threat of draconian penalties and then we wouldn't even need a safety car. It's only there because the drivers can't be trusted to behave in a way which ensures marshals can work safely.
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 1 Nov 2019, 02:47 (Ref:3937898)   #24
sizzle
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Darwin
Posts: 3,525
sizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolley View Post
There's always the possibility of making them obey the flags under threat of draconian penalties and then we wouldn't even need a safety car. It's only there because the drivers can't be trusted to behave in a way which ensures marshals can work safely.
That may be true if it was a "safety" car and not an "entertainment vehicle"
sizzle is offline  
Quote
Old 1 Nov 2019, 02:55 (Ref:3937899)   #25
Forda
Veteran
 
Forda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,069
Forda should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by sizzle View Post
That may be true if it was a "safety" car and not an "entertainment vehicle"
Need to stay on topic here - this thread might solely constitute the ingredients for the pot which Mr Seamer is referring to.
Forda is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to solve the Indycar/Champ Car situation, letter published on Kirby's website johntt ChampCar World Series 50 6 Feb 2008 15:27
Bernie will be the one to solve customer car row Champions Formula One 4 16 Apr 2007 20:21
Safety car issues (Silverstone) ss_collins Sportscar & GT Racing 44 20 Aug 2005 15:53
BMW to solve row pink69 Touring Car Racing 4 9 Jun 2002 22:35
The mystery in NASCAR that no one has been able to solve Joe Fan NASCAR & Stock Car Racing 8 28 Sep 2001 08:53


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.