ALMS 2010 Discussion

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Acid09

And that was exactly the mistake that caused LMP numbers to drop. The ALMS chose to mess with the class regulations to make it more exciting and please Porsche, causing all privateer LMP2 entrants (the guys these class was made for) to leave.

That caused their dependency for factory efforts which has put the series into its current state. The ALMS has never understood that endurance racing has to be backed by privateers, not manufacturers. That's why the LMS does so well...you have almost no manufacturer efforts there.

The ALMS is set for the future? If Acura leaves, there`s nothing left... the series is grasping for the final straws, wrapping it in marketing BS.

The argument "LMS does x and it results in y" doesn't make sense for the American Le Mans series. If the ALMS were to be a clone of how the LMS runs, it would be destroyed by Grand-Am because there would be no purpose to the ALMS. The cars would be ludicrously expensive and you'd be better off in Grand-Am as a privateer. Yeah, they'd be faster than DPs, you'd have slightly more technology and advancement but nothing significant and you'd get an invitation to Le Mans and that is not worth the added cost of running an ALMS car. Factory teams, backed private teams, and teams looking to make money in racing are the backbone of the ALMS because that is a niche market. Privateer racing in America you have Grand-Am. Privateer racing in Europe you have the LMS. No reason for privateer-centric thinking in the ALMS.

Chris

[Speed-King]

Well, the early ALMS and post-GTP-IMSA had just one prototype class as well. I don't think that's that big of a problem. In fact it is better to have one "full" class instead of two anaemic ones - even if it costs the series 1 or 2 prototypes overall.

I second your sentiment about the privateers being the sport's lifeblood, though.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

ALMS 2010

LMP & LMPC

These classes is being introduced ahead of the ACO’s 2011 defacto merge of the prototype classes with their new engine regs. And the introduction of a pure stock production low hp engined class as the new P-2. It looks to me as a proactive move on the part of the ALMS which will also allow the Formula Le Mans cars to come over for some of the rounds also!


GT & GTC

Here we have the loss of GT-1 and the bid by the big 4 (Porsche, Ferrari, GM, AM) to continue to have a class that they can develop their premier GT cars, which does not occur with the Rats vision of GT-1 as a micro class on the world stage.

So that leaves us with GT-2 as the main GT class world wide. Not all teams are going to be able or want to compete with factory squads.Which leaves us with the new GTC class that has been running in the ALMS this year, which so far has worked much better than I thought it would. Also in the release is the statement that other GT-3s will be bought in to the class in the future, which will provide a good entry class for privateers in the ALMS GT class.


As to more hp for LMPC and more GT-3s, I think by 2011 that may come to pass. But it all depends on how these classes perform in 2010 together as a whole I believe.





L.P.

Nuff 'said.

Now let me watch the race!

Chris

[Purist]

If anyone fouled up the prototype rules, it was the ACO for not realizing the potential of a dedicated car built to the rules set forth in LMP2. Even in privateer hands, Porsche RS Spyders would be capable of harassing the LMP1s at some tracks. The trouble is that the haves could run that car while the have-nots probably couldn't afford to do so.

The alternative isn't much better though, because the old LMP2/675 cars for the most part couldn't hold themselves together, so you had a pathetic last-man-standing scenario most of the time in the second class. The factories may have defeated the intent of the class, but they made it a class worth watching and one that actually got real air time/attention for its competitors.

The full season LMP2 class was collapsing if anything heading toward the end of 2005, and LMP1 was largely an Audi benefit at the time. So, the factories entering LMP2, which is what the boards were willing to approve, was rather fortuitous for the ALMS. It turned out even better with the LMP2s able to give the LMP1s hell at a lot of the American circuits.

[Jonerz]

Thus new LMP2 (LMPC) could be the answer.

/Problem

Chris

P.S. I swear I'm watching the race.

[fieldodreams79]

i'm not a big fan of one LMP class, but i don't care as long as the cars have qualiity and quantity.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Speed-King has my thoughts right. Both classes would be scored with the regular points structure and would carry them forward into the total overall score. Not 0 pts for the class winners, but 30 pts for Sebring etc. which would reward them for running good at the endurace rounds rather than throwing those rounds out!!

Listening to Scott Atherton with Hindy it seems this is the screnario that we will have.




L.P.

[AndrewF31]

Ya, it seems like it. Should be interesting if we have Acuras whether the teams will go with the P2 engine or the P1 engine. They could get a massive amount of points from Sebring and PLM instead of racing in P1 in those races against, for example, Audi and Peugeot, and whoever else pops in.

[tlongman]

On the SPEED broadcast Scott Atherton just said that 1 current GT3 Challenge class team has confirmed a GT2 program for next year. I would assume it would be another Porsche team and I would think that Gruppe Orange Racing or Orbit Racing would be the 2 most likely to move up to the next level.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Hmm,

Single.....LMP class = BAD
Formula...LMP class = Better than Challenge Class

and they will be Chevy 6.2 crate motors like the FLMS cars from Oreca.


L.P.

Hey Horny, can you expand on why you feel this way?

I think returning back to what we had in 2008 (or even '04) turned out really well. The only difference is that we're making it official.

Having a spec. class in the ALMS goes against the everything I like sportscar racing and why I don't find GA interesting. I don't care how fast, good looking, great sounding the spec class may be, I like innovation and diversity.

That being said, I am a fan of Scott Atherton and think he is an astute businessman. I'll give it a shot as he asked.

[Jonerz]

The new team, Velox Motorsport could be in the cards as well. Martin Snow has said he and Mellany are seriously considering their options for next year (in regards to GTC or GT2 I don't know which).

Chris

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Hey Horny, can you expand on why you feel this way?

I think returning back to what we had in 2008 (or even '04) turned out really well. The only difference is that we're making it official.

Having a spec. class in the ALMS goes against the everything I like sportscar racing and why I don't find GA interesting. I don't care how fast, good looking, great sounding the spec class may be, I like innovation and diversity.

That being said, I am a fan of Scott Atherton and think he is an astute businessman. I'll give it a shot as he asked.

But we did not end up with a single prototype class! We get a semi-merged 1&2 with the addition of the LMPC. So at the minimum we have 2 prototype classes and in some cases 3. I am actually all for the proposed 2010 ALMS classes, which still leaves a class for the novice or low budget teams to compete for a class title.


But it is not a spec series! You still have innovation and diversity with the added bonus of a class as an entry level that has the performance to not be a total moving chicane! In both prototype an GT type cars.



L.P.

[joeb]

I like the idea of inviting other gt3 versions of the Porsche for next season. I wonder who will jump from Grand-am or SpeedGT for the ALMS races? Also Atherton mentioned the possibility of other gt3's in 2011.

[Purist]

I know that real changes are unlikely, but the schedule could use some shoring up in places, both in the calendar and geographically.

Portland has been refurbished, and the Northwest is somewhere that the ALMS should work on getting back into. I'm surprised there hasn't been something of a push, with Fernandez and Diaz racing, for an event south of the border. The middle of the US could also use something more. Perhaps Heartland Park or High Plains Raceway could be options.

As far as dates, the Le Mans gap should be tightened up some, especially if there's not going to be the test two weeks ahead of the big event. If Lime Rock is to stay moved ahead, maybe doubling with IndyCar at the Glen is an idea for 4th of July festivities. Even crazier, but something that could be great, would be talking to Michaelian (I think that's his last name) about Cleveland. Also, there should eventually be at least one more event before Le Mans. And I wouldn't think it too out there to have a race ahead of Sebring. It might help exposure to get the season rolling sooner once again.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I understand your fear of LMPC and GTC. I cringe at the thought of spec cars in my beloved ALMS. However, even then both of these classes seem very much to be preludes to 2011 (particularly LMPC).


Chris

If that IS a prelude to 2011, no the sky is not falling, it already fell and the king is parading around in his new clothes butt-ass naked.

There is nothing wrong with equalizing p1 and p2 permanently, but he rules are mickey mouse and no sponsor, which is NEEDED DESPERATELY will waste time on such a mickey mouse gimmick for long, if at all.

[cptkablamo]

I think that they have a good class system in place for next year - not 100% sure on the enduros, but overall it is pretty good...

I wonder who is in the pipeline for the LMPC class - and how much cheaper it will be than the current LMP2 class...for a Dyson for VDS (if they did a full season)

No mention of race or calendar format - so guessing that will remain pretty much the same

[DanShenise]

^^^They mentioned on the broadcast today that the you could run a LMPC team for under $1mil per season. Knowing of course that there is a huge gulf between $500K and $999K, I'd like to see what becomes of this. Personally, I think its a win. The new challenge cars will look like the real P1-2 machines so I don't think from a marketing standpoint it'll be the exercise in ugly that the Rolex series is. Sportscar car fans know that there is only one true sportscar series in NA. Its getting marketers to see that though there is another series out there, its a series without spectators, organized by a huge corporation hoping to run the clock out on the competition. For the casual viewer, it'll look like there are a bunch of new LMP class cars out there. This could be good, as it'll look like Lenny the Lawyer with a good practice could in theory go start a race team. If he has the mythical $500K to $999 laying around per year. I still dream of making enough to make a run at starting a team. If I could find a way to do it for under a million a season, its much more likely now.

[cptkablamo]

Thanks and welcome!

well $1m sounds good - with two drivers, they have to bring less than $500k each (and likely less than that) to run a full season. I think we are on the right track with that...

[joeb]

Originally Posted by cptkablamo

Thanks and welcome!

well $1m sounds good - with two drivers, they have to bring less than $500k each (and likely less than that) to run a full season. I think we are on the right track with that...

I missed that number in the broadcast. That sounds like a good lower number compared to the existing ALMS team budgets. But I wonder if that is on top of setting up a new team (transporter, shop, etc.)? I also wonder if any current teams will jump to the LMPC class. I know this has been discussed on other threads. I could potentially see Primetime doing this. They already run Lites cars well, so why not this.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by DanShenise

^^^They mentioned on the broadcast today that the you could run a LMPC team for under $1mil per season. Knowing of course that there is a huge gulf between $500K and $999K, I'd like to see what becomes of this. Personally, I think its a win. The new challenge cars will look like the real P1-2 machines so I don't think from a marketing standpoint it'll be the exercise in ugly that the Rolex series is. Sportscar car fans know that there is only one true sportscar series in NA. Its getting marketers to see that though there is another series out there, its a series without spectators, organized by a huge corporation hoping to run the clock out on the competition. For the casual viewer, it'll look like there are a bunch of new LMP class cars out there. This could be good, as it'll look like Lenny the Lawyer with a good practice could in theory go start a race team. If he has the mythical $500K to $999 laying around per year. I still dream of making enough to make a run at starting a team. If I could find a way to do it for under a million a season, its much more likely now.

So you are saying the fans are ignorant simpletons; France family think.
or as Barnum said:
A sucker is born every minute.
Ah rationalization, a politicians first defense.

[ARTRACER1]

There are more grey areas here than on my head. 2 ladder classes mixing it with 2 regular classes, lot's of overlapping, rule bending and allowances. From a fan perspective, I'd be sitting down right now as I would be very dizzy. I understand the thinking but I fear the execution may backfire. Now there's a word from the golden age of racing. I saw the FLM cars at LM. Sounded like the old Indy Lights cars. The sound does not go with the look, plus they were not real quick. Having a P class is good, but it must BE a P class, not one made up of various one's to appear as one. A Dyson Mazda is NOT a Peugeot, and an R 15 is not a Courage. Maybe they ae afraid Audi will not come back if they change too much, considering the amount of investment that they and the French have invested in diesel. I would make the engines top out at 3.5 litres, the BHP at 700 and then open it up. Run what you brung. Make it a little more interesting and creative. Cap the cost if necessary, but many will not like that. Too close to spec. Thats the LAST thing serious International sportscar racing needs. But this may get more complex than it needs to be. I think....

[Jonerz]

I think there is too much focus on the FLM class. We remember who won Prototype 5000 at Le Mans in 1970, not who came first in sports 2000. Admittedly there was more freedom in sports 2000 and thus it was more "pure". But realities are what they are.

Don't glaze over the fact that the Oreca FLM car will fit right in with the proposed 2011 rules and this is likely a prelude to that.

Chris

[WMUCarGuy]

What about allowing other GT3esque cars to run in GT3C. Other cars from Speed GT perhaps?

[mountainstar]

I don't know why people insist we have all these damn classes. Just give me one good rule package for prototypes and one good rule package for GT cars. Easy. Done.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by ARTRACER1

There are more grey areas here than on my head. 2 ladder classes mixing it with 2 regular classes, lot's of overlapping, rule bending and allowances. From a fan perspective, I'd be sitting down right now as I would be very dizzy. I understand the thinking but I fear the execution may backfire. Now there's a word from the golden age of racing. I saw the FLM cars at LM. Sounded like the old Indy Lights cars. The sound does not go with the look, plus they were not real quick. Having a P class is good, but it must BE a P class, not one made up of various one's to appear as one. A Dyson Mazda is NOT a Peugeot, and an R 15 is not a Courage. Maybe they ae afraid Audi will not come back if they change too much, considering the amount of investment that they and the French have invested in diesel. I would make the engines top out at 3.5 litres, the BHP at 700 and then open it up. Run what you brung. Make it a little more interesting and creative. Cap the cost if necessary, but many will not like that. Too close to spec. Thats the LAST thing serious International sportscar racing needs. But this may get more complex than it needs to be. I think....

Must not be much hair left then. Because there is not much grey here. Some questions? Yes. All the time sheets I have seen put them solidly in the upper-mid pack of the P-2s through the GT-1s, so were the GT-1s to slow also?? As to the rest of the supposition, well....


L.P.