2012 FIA GT3 European Championship

[alexkiller8]

camaro gt3 weight is something more of 1300kg (by release info because in fia site there aren't anymore pdf files with data info), corvette z06 gt3 dry weight is 1280kg or 1270kg in 2010 version.
I'm talking about racecars

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

camaro gt3 weight is something more of 1300kg (by release info because in fia site there aren't anymore pdf files with data info), corvette z06 gt3 dry weight is 1280kg or 1270kg in 2010 version.
I'm talking about racecars

The SLS is 1300kg or more I believe so does it really matter? I would rather see a BoP’d Camaro running in the middle of the pack than a Callaway Z06 loaded with ballast and choked with a tiny restrictor running at the back. This is basically spec racing with different marques because of BoP; in theory a VW Jetta could compete because of BoP. What will be hilarious is if the Camaro actually wins a few races, how humiliating that will be for McLaren, Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Audi and Merc. I doubt the SRO or FIA will let that happen though.

[kyoung]

I just assumed they were going to have APP supply their engines, looks like it will be Katech. Seems odd considering the logistics, APP is their back yard.

http://www.katechengines.com/camaro-gt3-debut/

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by kyoung

The SLS is 1300kg or more I believe so does it really matter? I would rather see a BoP’d Camaro running in the middle of the pack than a Callaway Z06 loaded with ballast and choked with a tiny restrictor running at the back. This is basically spec racing with different marques because of BoP; in theory a VW Jetta could compete because of BoP. What will be hilarious is if the Camaro actually wins a few races, how humiliating that will be for McLaren, Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Audi and Merc. I doubt the SRO or FIA will let that happen though.

you're wrong because sls weight was 1340kg in 2011 not 1300kg, however the car can't be compared with camaro, because sls has been projected and built directly by mercedes with the help of HWA and was one of cars with best aero package that impressed a lot in his debut year (some win in fia gt3, podium at spa, victory at 24h of dubai etc...). Camaro by sereni is a car born from a shilly-shallying between reiter and his external section (SeReNi) in a project left and reopened for at least 2 years long (reiter projected, built and developed a new spec GT1 car like R-SV in just some months). For this reason i don't expect much by this car. BTW callaway since 2011 focused exclusively on adac gt master because their bop let them still to be competitive.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

you're wrong because sls weight was 1340kg in 2011 not 1300kg, however the car can't be compared with camaro, because sls has been projected and built directly by mercedes with the help of HWA and was one of cars with best aero package that impressed a lot in his debut year (some win in fia gt3, podium at spa, victory at 24h of dubai etc...). Camaro by sereni is a car born from a shilly-shallying between reiter and his external section (SeReNi) in a project left and reopened for at least 2 years long (reiter projected, built and developed a new spec GT1 car like R-SV in just some months). For this reason i don't expect much by this car. BTW callaway since 2011 focused exclusively on adac gt master because their bop let them still to be competitive.

It doesn’t matter where the SLS was developed or the amount of money spent on tech if during the BoP test they get more ballast and a smaller restrictor. In this case they didn’t need the ballast because it was already a fat pig of a car. I said “The SLS is 1300kg or more” because I couldn’t remember the exact homologated weight, I don’t know how that is wrong but whatever. If it’s a performance balanced series the Camaro should be competitive, or someone got the BoP wrong. The Z06 homologated weight was 1270kg as you pointed out but that didn’t matter because it was loaded with enough ballast to make it weight around (If I remember correctly it was 1340kg…but I could be wrong) same as the fat Merc with a smaller restrictor thrown in for good measure. As far as the ADAC BoP goes, it wasn’t much different from the FIA GT3 BoP; just enough to keep Ernst interested in racing the cars somewhere. I’ll be pulling for the Camaro and just for comedic effect I hope it can win a few.

[Accident]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

You sure? I see no mention of the Camaro, only Callaway Corvette in the quoted post.

Yes, I was referring to the Camaro. He said "than that overweighted tank" or whatever about the Camaro mentioned above his post.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by kyoung

It doesn’t matter where the SLS was developed or the amount of money spent on tech if during the BoP test they get more ballast and a smaller restrictor. In this case they didn’t need the ballast because it was already a fat pig of a car. I said “The SLS is 1300kg or more” because I couldn’t remember the exact homologated weight, I don’t know how that is wrong but whatever. If it’s a performance balanced series the Camaro should be competitive, or someone got the BoP wrong. The Z06 homologated weight was 1270kg as you pointed out but that didn’t matter because it was loaded with enough ballast to make it weight around (If I remember correctly it was 1340kg…but I could be wrong) same as the fat Merc with a smaller restrictor thrown in for good measure. As far as the ADAC BoP goes, it wasn’t much different from the FIA GT3 BoP; just enough to keep Ernst interested in racing the cars somewhere. I’ll be pulling for the Camaro and just for comedic effect I hope it can win a few.

the bop can give a hand or ruin the season of all cars, is not just about camaro, corvette or sls! i was talking about that the sls even if heavier in my opinion is a better built and developed racecar than the camaro, this is the difference! for this reason i think that the camaro won't be good because is a too much heavy car with a not so good race development.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

the bop can give a hand or ruin the season of all cars, is not just about camaro, corvette or sls!

I agree with this completely, you should have stopped here.

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

i was talking about that the sls even if heavier in my opinion is a better built and developed racecar than the camaro, this is the difference! for this reason i think that the camaro won't be good because is a too much heavy car with a not so good race development.

OK, one more time... it doesn't matter if one car is powered by a large rubber band and the other dilithium crystals, BoP is used to equalize the cars to similar/equal performance in this series. If the cars don't perform close to one another somebody didn't do their job. The Camaro team may suck, they may have crappy drivers, but in theory the car should perform as well as all other cars within the constraints of BoP. Which means it should have an equal chance to win races.

[alexkiller8]

your messages focus on bop, mines about quality of the car. Simple, this is the difference. What i wish is that callaway's corvette cars will be able (according with a fair bop) to be faster than this camaro, in this way i hope that manufacters/tuners will learn that not all street cars can be turned in gt3 cars, discouraging a certain korean manufacter to build a gt3 version of a NOT gt car.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

your messages focus on bop, mines about quality of the car. Simple, this is the difference. What i wish is that callaway's corvette cars will be able (according with a fair bop) to be faster than this camaro, in this way i hope that manufacters/tuners will learn that not all street cars can be turned in gt3 cars, discouraging a certain korean manufacter to build a gt3 version of a NOT gt car.

That’s the whole point; quality/development /money/badge snobbery doesn’t matter in this kind of racing because if you gain access you are suppose to have an equal chance to win no matter what you enter. The minute you say someone doesn’t belong is the minute you upset someone, it is what it is. That said; I’m going to have fun watching a Camaro out run some of the “quality” cars. If anything I think the Camaro will encourage teams to enter V8 powered Hyundai and KIAs. When that Hyundai Genesis is breathing down the neck of a DB9 or 458, how great will that be?

[Speed-King]

Well, there are cars that failed hard in GT3... especially from the first generation like the Maserati, but also the Ferrari 430 and the Porsche Cup-S underdelivered quite a bit or were only good for a very limited number of seasons.

[Nic_O]

I'm not sure that BoP really equalizes every cars. I know they use one of the actual cars as a benchmark, but then ( correct me if i'm wrong ) if some are slower, BoP won't do anything to make them faster.

[cmk]

I don't think that's true, because I don't think BoP tests start with a 'blank-sheet' setup but rather a basically informed one. Unless the car rolls off the truck with optimal ride-height, bare minimum chassis weight and no restrictors on a perfect engine map, there will be a relatively straight-forward way to speed a car up.

[Mt. Lynx]

Originally Posted by cmk

I don't think that's true, because I don't think BoP tests start with a 'blank-sheet' setup but rather a basically informed one. Unless the car rolls off the truck with optimal ride-height, bare minimum chassis weight and no restrictors on a perfect engine map, there will be a relatively straight-forward way to speed a car up.

I think BoP starts out with a simple power to weight ratio and goes from there. That is why some cars seems to get unfairly treated, like the Z06, and others seem to gain from it, like the SLS. That would make sense to me atleast. That said, I wish they started out with a blank sheet setup, cause that would certainly be more fair.

[I Rosputnik]

I don't see the harm with a team entering a Camaro into GT3 racing. Camaro's have raced at Le Mans before in 1982 against Porsches and BMW's. If it turns into arguement about badges then what about manufacturers that make normal cars such as Nissan, Ford or Dodge?

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Nic_O

if some are slower, BoP won't do anything to make them faster.

No but you can slow the rest of the field with ballast and restrictors, which is pretty much what they do.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by cmk

I don't think that's true, because I don't think BoP tests start with a 'blank-sheet' setup but rather a basically informed one. Unless the car rolls off the truck with optimal ride-height, bare minimum chassis weight and no restrictors on a perfect engine map, there will be a relatively straight-forward way to speed a car up.

This would be true if they only performance balanced once at the beginning of the season. But the FIA/SRO changes the BoP throughout the entire season.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

I think BoP starts out with a simple power to weight ratio and goes from there.

In the past I think they used the 911 as a baseline for BoP, I don’t know if that is still the case.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by I Rosputnik

I don't see the harm with a team entering a Camaro into GT3 racing. Camaro's have raced at Le Mans before in 1982 against Porsches and BMW's. If it turns into arguement about badges then what about manufacturers that make normal cars such as Nissan, Ford or Dodge?

There is no harm in it, but the Camaro will look out of place. But then I don’t think the Alpina or Z4 (with a V8) belong there either.

[kurski]

Finnish driver, Mika Vähämäki, will contest a full season of the 2012 FIA GT3 Europe Championship with 2011 championship-winning team, HEICO Motorsport. Vähämäki partner is Max Nilsson.

[lms]

Originally Posted by kyoung

There is no harm in it, but the Camaro will look out of place.

yes it will unfortunately. And that nissan minivan will also look out of place in bes. Someone should take a giant hammer to make it a bit flatter.

[Deleted]

So looks like the FIA is (temporarily) okay with the GT3 Corvettes again as the most up-to-date BoP list shows that they've lost that ridiculous 80kg ballast since last year and also gained 15mm bigger air restrictor... now that the Callaway machines are treated fairly again - well for the first time since the early 2010 - someone might actually be tempted to race in these series

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Chiana

So looks like the FIA is (temporarily) okay with the GT3 Corvettes again as the most up-to-date BoP list shows that they've lost that ridiculous 80kg ballast since last year and also gained 15mm bigger air restrictor... now that the Callaway machines are treated fairly again - well for the first time since the early 2010 - someone might actually be tempted to race in these series

You know why…right; because the Z06 GT3 is now running an LS3 instead of the LS7. The competition had no chance against a fairly balanced LS7 powered car so Corvette had to dial it back again.

ADAC: Ernst Wöhr looks ahead to the 2012 GT3 season

So the Camaro gets the Vette engine and the Vette gets the Camaro engine.

[alexkiller8]

well the LS7 used in Z06 GT3 was a good engine but was however a not so deep race elaborated stock engine! ok a lot of torque but is not a warmachine like the LS7R.... i think that they switched for the 6.2 to have less weight on front to balance better the handling of 2012 model. Afterall the specs of the ls7 and the ls3 are not so different... for sure hasn't been this the cause of changing of bop.
Camaro GT3 will use a modified katech 8.2l used in c6 rs, maybe an aggressive point of view about engine swapping rule but still legal as action (the katech 8.2l is a LS7 bored).

Will be nice to see callaway team come back in fia gt3, but even a team with a 2012 corvette Z06 GT3 in gt1 wasn't so bad

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

well the LS7 used in Z06 GT3 was a good engine but was however a not so deep race elaborated stock engine! ok a lot of torque but is not a warmachine like the LS7R.... i think that they switched for the 6.2 to have less weight on front to balance better the handling of 2012 model. Afterall the specs of the ls7 and the ls3 are not so different... for sure hasn't been this the cause of changing of bop.
Camaro GT3 will use a modified katech 8.2l used in c6 rs, maybe an aggressive point of view about engine swapping rule but still legal as action (the katech 8.2l is a LS7 bored).

Will be nice to see callaway team come back in fia gt3, but even a team with a 2012 corvette Z06 GT3 in gt1 wasn't so bad

Well let me take a lesson out of your book; YOU’RE WRONG!

There is only 25 pounds or 11.3KG difference between the two engines; the external dimensions are virtually the same. The FIA/SRO pulled 80KG ballast from the car because of the engine switch. The reason for the switch was to loosen the choke hold of ballast and restrictors the FIA/SRO put on the LS7 powered car. The larger displacement LS7 engine produces more horsepower and more torque in a package with nearly the same dimensions and weight as the LS3. A recent test with a race driver (Randy Pobst) had a 505hp Z06 beat a 570hp 458 by 2 seconds at Laguna Seca; that sounds like a pretty good engine to me. All racing cars have race modified engines. They got a bigger restrictor break/less ballast because of the smaller displacement; end of story.