Johnny Dumfries

marcus · 24 Oct 2003, 02:01 (Ref:761436)

I was watching a bit of the 1986 F1 season review the other day to fill in some time and as we know Johnny Dumfries drove for the Lotus team that year next to Ayrton Senna.

but I have heard that he was some kind of royalty of some kind (an Earl perhaps?)

can someone please explain to me what an Earl is and what kind of Royalty this is and how did his family like someone of that position racing cars ?

I guess while we are on the topic what other royalties have participated in motorsport in the past ?

I remember Prince Bira (but honestly dont know anything about him) and there could be a few others lurking around.

CHEERS
Marcus

**Peter Mallett** · 24 Oct 2003, 04:34 (Ref:761500)

There's Gawain Bailey.(sp) who is an "honourable.

Johnny is the Earl of Bute. As such he organises a historic event on the Isle of Bute annually. Its getting to be the Scottish equivalent of the Goodwood FoS by all accounts.

A much underrated driver who had good things ahead of him. He gave it up to run the family pile.

David McKinney · 24 Oct 2003, 05:40 (Ref:761523)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
There's Gawain Bailey.(sp) who is an "honourable.

Sir Gawaine Baillie. He was (or is) a baronet, which is a hereditary knighthood

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Johnny is the Earl of Bute

As son and heir of the Marquis of Bute, Hon John Crichton-Stuart had the title of Earl of Dumfries, but raced under the name of Johnny Dumfries. When his father died, Johnny became Marquis of Bute

simon drabble · 24 Oct 2003, 07:16 (Ref:761580)

there was some time lapse between him giving up and moving up north, sadly I think his retirement was more to do with not getting a competitive ride in F1. If my memory serves me right James Hunt was always very dismissive of him which I think was a rare lack of judgement on the late great Hunts side.

**Adam43** · 24 Oct 2003, 08:33 (Ref:761637)

Quote:

Originally posted by marcus
I remember Prince Bira (but honestly dont know anything about him) and there could be a few others lurking around.

In case you haven't seen the recent thread on Prince Bira (or Birabongse Bhanuban of Siam)
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=45075

On Johnny, he is a Le Mans winner to boot!

**Peter Mallett** · 24 Oct 2003, 08:41 (Ref:761647)

Quote:

Originally posted by David McKinney
Sir Gawaine Baillie. He was (or is) a baronet, which is a hereditary knighthood

As son and heir of the Marquis of Bute, Hon John Crichton-Stuart had the title of Earl of Dumfries, but raced under the name of Johnny Dumfries. When his father died, Johnny became Marquis of Bute

Don't put on those "heirs" and "graces" with me my lad.

Thanks for the correction David.

Actually the Marquis of Bute was a pub in Luton behind my office when I worked in that town.

**Adam43** · 24 Oct 2003, 08:44 (Ref:761650)

Not raced, but Prince Charles once tested a racing car (sorry for being vague can't remember the details now). There is a picture and a little about it in one of the books by Graham Hill.

**Peter Mallett** · 24 Oct 2003, 08:48 (Ref:761656)

And is it the Duke of Kent who is a member of the BRDC?

**Adam43** · 24 Oct 2003, 09:00 (Ref:761673)

I do believe he is.

Andrew Kitson · 24 Oct 2003, 10:10 (Ref:761726)

The Duke of Kent is the president in chief of the BRDC and also president of the RAC I believe which includes the MSA.

KA · 24 Oct 2003, 10:37 (Ref:761740)

Quote:

Originally posted by simon drabble
there was some time lapse between him giving up and moving up north, sadly I think his retirement was more to do with not getting a competitive ride in F1.

He did have quite a long and successful spell in sportscars with Jaguar (as Adam mentioned, remember the 1988 Le Mans win?) and Toyota between the end of his F1 career and retiring.....

**Aysedasi** · 24 Oct 2003, 10:42 (Ref:761745)

Not that long at Jaguar...

And not very successful at Toyota either......

Remember that incident from the 1990 (?) Le Mans when he shunted the Toyota at the Ford Chicane and then when he finally got the car going he drove off with a camera attached to his car.....

KA · 24 Oct 2003, 10:49 (Ref:761754)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Not raced, but Prince Charles once tested a racing car (sorry for being vague can't remember the details now). There is a picture and a little about it in one of the books by Graham Hill.

Didn't a member of the Royal family once have a run in an F1 McLaren in the late 70's/early 80's- don't think it was Charles on that occasion, but maybe the Duke of Kent, given his RAC & BRDC links?

Another one that comes to mind is Prince Michael of Kent who has some rallying experience dating back to his army career in the early 70's- including the 1970 London-Mexico World Cup Rally in a works Austin Maxi....

Nordic · 24 Oct 2003, 12:27 (Ref:761849)

A few more,
Lord Howe won Le Mans in an alfa in the 30's.
Lord Freddie March (Grand Father to the current title holder) was a racer at brooklands
Lord Hesketh was a larger than life team owner in the 70's
King Jaun Carlos of Spain is a big fan and has been driven in a many racing cars, and driven a few.
some guy in Monaco is a fan to.

simon drabble · 24 Oct 2003, 12:49 (Ref:761876)

you are absolutely right about sportscar racing including the excellant victory in a Jaguar (might not have been for long but got a good result!) I was just referring to F1

TimD · 24 Oct 2003, 13:20 (Ref:761904)

I've got Suzy to thank for pointing me to this handy guide to ranks of peerage.

They are - in order of seniority:

Duke
Highest rank in the Peerage, dating from 1337 when King Edward III created his eldest son Duke of Cornwall. The first non-royal dukedom was created in 1448.

Marquess
The second rank in the Peerage is derived from the German Markgraf, signifying the guardian of a March, or border territory. King Richard introduced it into England in 1385.

Earl
The oldest rank. It is a Saxon term, when an Ealdornlan administered a shire or province for the king. The present title of Earl, derived from the Scandinavian Jarl, dates from the reign of King Canute (1016-35).

Viscount
The fourth rank in the Peerage is derived from the hereditary office of Vice-Comtes, that is, the deputy of a Count. King Henry VI introduced it into England in 1440.

Baron
Dating from the Normans, a Baron was tenant-in-chief of the king, holding his land directly from him. In Scotland, the equivalent title is Lord of Parliament, as the word 'Baron' relates to Feudal Barons.

If you are the eldest son of a Duke, you will be Marquess of Something. If your dad is an Earl, you will be Viscount Something and so on. The younger sons of Dukes and Marquesses are known as "Lord" while the younger sons of Earls, Viscounts and Barons are "The Honourable".

Strictly speaking, a Baronet is not a part of the peerage. Baronets were created by Charles II in an effort to raise revenue but more recently was used to confer an honour on someone who perhaps did not quite warrant a peerage. This could be an industrialist or a military officer. One important point - the Baronetcy is not a hereditary knighthood. It is hereditary, but the monicker "Sir" is merely the device used to refer to a Baronet. You can tell because his name will usually be followed with "Bt." or "Bart."

Some notable ones in motor racing would be:

Earl Howe, Edward Richard Francis Assheton, Viscount Curzon - former president of the BRDC and a racer in his own right in the 1930s

Freddie Richmond, Earl of March, the grandfather of the present custodian of Goodwood, Lord March. Raced Austin 7s to notable effect. Incidentally, when Charles inherits from his father, he will be the Duke of Richmond and Gordon.

Mark Pepys, Earl Cottingham

Lord Selsdon, who won Le Mans with Luigi Chinetti in 1949 but raced before the war as The Hon. Peter Mitchell-Thompson.

Lord Essendon, previously The Hon. Brian Lewis, member of the works Talbot team.

The Hon. Peter Aitken (notable Brooklands racer, lost in WW2)

The Hon. Victor Bruce (winner of the 1926 Monte Carlo Rally)

Not to mention some more racing Baronets, notably

Sir Henry "Tim" Birkin, Bt (Bentley boy par excellence)
Sir John Whitmore, Bt (wild Mini Cooper pedaller)

TimD · 24 Oct 2003, 13:26 (Ref:761910)

Oh, and incidentally, I think the best list of titles was that given to Alfonso de Portago. I seem to recall he had something like thirty-seven titles after his name!

KA · 24 Oct 2003, 13:44 (Ref:761930)

Quote:

Originally posted by Nordic

King Jaun Carlos of Spain is a big fan and has been driven in a many racing cars, and driven a few.

Isn't Alfonso d'Orleans-Bourbon, the Spanish sportscar privateer (usually Repsol-backed, drove Kremer Porsches in the FIA Sportscar and GT series in the mid-90's) some relation to King Juan Carlos?- I'm sure I've read something fairly recently which mentions him having connections to the Spanish royal family.

Nordic · 24 Oct 2003, 14:10 (Ref:761956)

Prince Leopold Von Bayern, the German BMW driver. Also something to do with a brewer? is another one

marcus · 24 Oct 2003, 23:24 (Ref:762330)

excellent , thanks for filling me in , very interesting read , I guess motorsport brings all types of classes together (which is a good thing

)

TimD · 25 Oct 2003, 11:42 (Ref:762592)

Most definitely there, Marcus, and here's a happy tale for you on that subject.

One of Earl Howe's contemporaries was a Yorkshireman called Freddie Dixon. He was as rough as they come - a real "salt of the earth" character. He was a bike tuner who progressed to cars and became famous for what he could do to a Riley engine to make it go faster than anyone else's.

Fred was the kind of man who did not suffer fools gladly, had no time for pomp or authority and said it exactly how it was. And there was one occasion where Fred was in the Brooklands clubhouse celebrating a good qualifying when someone broke it to him that Earl Howe had beaten his time. "What!!!?" roared Fred, "I'm not going to be beaten by a ******* lord!" Unfortunately, his outburst came just as as there was a lull in the barroom conversation - as Earl Howe entered the room....

Edward Richard Francis Assheton summed up the situation, strolled over to the bar, and cheerfully asked, "Dixon, would you care to be bought a drink by a ******* lord?"

Apparently from that moment on they became the firmest of friends and the good earl took great delight in Fred's greeting to him every time they met.

"Aye oop - 'ow's 'owe?"

D-Type · 25 Oct 2003, 13:50 (Ref:762687)

This link should tell you all you need to know (and a little bit more)

http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58552&highlight=titled

Enjoy

TimD - I liked the story

marcus · 25 Oct 2003, 23:03 (Ref:763073)

excellent story Tim , gotta love it dont you two men worlds apart in stature and standing brought together by one common element "the need for speed".

thanks for the links everyone I've totally enjoyed this thread

simon drabble · 27 Oct 2003, 08:40 (Ref:764252)

Tim, You have left off Eddie Arundel on your list of titled drivers, now the Duke of Norfolk!

D-Type · 29 Oct 2003, 11:28 (Ref:766800)

When Brands Hatch hosted the British GP, they sometimes had Lords vs Commons celebrity race.
Does anyone know any results? Or lists of participants? There was a certain amount of delegation as a certain Mark Thatcher took part on behalf of his mum one year.

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