Duty of care to a driver?

[Marshal]

Had a bit of an exciting moment today at Combe, where I ended up in the middle of the track for the last lap and a half of the Combe GTs. Two cars collided, one remained immobile in the middle of the circuit, and the driver didn't get out (it had been a reasonably firm impact on the drivers side). I went out to the car, asked the driver if he was ok, to which he replied in the afirmative, but he clearly was quite shaken, and showed no signs of getting out. At this point I called for rescue, and told the driver that all was going to be well.

For operational reasons to dull to go into the race continued for what felt like a week (about a lap actually) I was then stood (shielded by the car) whispering sweet nothings (its all going to be ok, help's on its way) to the driver, whilst paying close attention to the oncoming traffic (yes still taking care of myself first). At no stage did I consider running away back to the safety of the bank (though on a couple of actions I thought I was just going to have to run) but in retrospect I've been thinking if that was the right thing to do.

So, not wishing to spend too long on the rights and wrongs of the situation above, when you have arrived at an incident and have effectively taken responsability for an injured, scared individual, when is it right to run away before the cavelry arrive?

[M Greenslade]

I dunno, but it was a blo-dy good bit of marshalling Jon - well done.

Bladders.......

[White flag man]

I certainly admire you sense of responsibility John but, 1 injured person is better than 2. What more could you have done for the driver before rescue arrived?, did you feel safe?
IMO you did everything you had to do and very quickly, having done that "maybe" you should have retired to a safer place.

[MGDavid]

from a driver's POV I salute you and am eternally grateful that this is how marshals behave; not knowing the precise location of this incident I just hope it was in a position of clear vision for the other drivers and hence you judged the risk of remaining there relatively minor.

[SRPhoto]

If you need to 'get out of there' then you need to go!

However it is all to easy to cast an opinion either way (especially from the next or previous post) BUT, at the end of the day it's all about the team on that post doing what they felt was right. It would be nice if we had 5 or 10 minutes to weigh up the situation, a minute would be nice some times, however once the dust has settled the team on that post are making decisions very fast with their own safety first and then that of the driver.

[JimW]

I'm not sure about a "duty" in any strict legal sense but better a voluntarily assumed obligation. Good work. Reassurance to a person in those circumstances means a great deal and just your presence will have been a comfort.

I would (and have) done exactly as you describe.

Equally I would not blame anyone who took a different view of the risks. (See the signature.)

Lonely out there isn't it? and the rescue unit takes forever to arrive.

Regards

Jim

[johnw]

Heroes indeed.
Thanks from us all

[Bodysnatcher]

Been there, done that and, like you, to me it felt the right thing to do.

Like Jim says choose your risks, using your experience to gauge likely outcomes.

If, in retrospect you think it was wrong (read too dangerous) to be there then perhaps it's time to change roles.

Otherwise, big well done from me too.

[Mr.Jingles]

From my own (driver) perspective - whilst I applaud what you did and *seriously* respect you for doing it, I don't expect anyone to do that for me unless my very life depended on it.

My reasoning on this being that I'm not sure quite how I'd ever forgive myself if my car got hit and rolled over you, fatally injuring you but just leaving me dazed and confused in my helmet, harness and cage.

If I'm on fire, unconsious or the car is bent in half so I can't exit then it might be a different story!

So yeah - you did great, but please don't ever feel obliged on our account to stay in situ if it isn't safe, as much as a comfort as it'd be for me/the driver it is not worth your neck.

I hope the driver thanked you afterwards!

[Richard Sneader]

Well done,
you did your own assessment and got out there and carried out good intervention. This is something a couple of us with alot of support have been pushing at training but still with safety in mind. no one expects any one to put their life in danger. Well done again.
RS

[garybirch]

I guess we have to take everything on an individual case by case assessment.

Yes we're to keep ourselves from harm, but what self respecting human being wouldn't want to stay with someone who may be hurt when there seems to be no immediate danger to themselves.

But.. we also don't judge someone else's judgement of a situation when we're not in their shoes either, so if you had have gone back, nobody would have thought any less.

Well done

[andy97]

Given the description of th incident in the OP, I on't understand why the race was not immediately red flagged. Or am I missing something?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by andy97

Given the description of th incident in the OP, I on't understand why the race was not immediately red flagged. Or am I missing something?

Yes, that looks like the elephant in this room.

Jim

[The Fat Clerk]

Not always as straight forward as that.
Get a Clerk of the Course away from a race meeting, sit him down with a pint of something nice and he'll explain.

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by Marshal

For operational reasons to dull to go into the race continued for what felt like a week (about a lap actually)....

I was afraid the thread might go this way which is why I said the above, I actually agree with the fat clerk, its not always that simple.

On a more positive note, thanks for the support. On balance, i think it was the right thing to do, but it was thought provoking.

[NotLordPercy]

Yes, great & efficient work Jon!! Problem was that there were only 1 & half laps to go...so Safety Car not an option ; after 20 seconds ( seemed longer!) and driver still did not jump out & away, race control decided best option was chequered flag and this ( I think) came out a lap early. Possibly a younger driver would have emerged quicker...but every situation, as we know, is slightly different with different solutions and options.
The worrying feature was the apparent attitude of some drivers who did not slow enough with a furiously waved yellow flag at the entrance to Quarry. This made a tricky situation more hazardous and further under lines the fact that yellows should be used more sparingly ....and then drivers would know that there really is a possibly dangerous situation ahead on the track!
But full marks for superb reactions again, Jon ! And to the young course marshal who had the presence of mind to go to the other car involved to make sure the driver was OK & not suffering from shock or worse.

[Lancsbreaker]

I don't know Combe, or where the incident took place, but as a driver I tend to go with Mr Jingles above.......so long as there's no risk of fire - I reckon I'm relatively safe in a big metal box - certainly safer than you are outside it....so whilst I greatly admire your dedication and bravery in this instance, my take would be that once you've checked on me, keep yourself safe and concentrate on stopping the rest of the rock apes hitting me

I've never really understood why drivers are so loath to slow markedly for a waved yellow.....if someone overtakes them they're toast, anyway......

[Asp]

I think the straight forward answer to the actual question here is "when you don't feel safe".

There's no legal duty to stay and help, but there's certainly a moral one. Before running out to sit in the middle of the track, we all make our individual risk assessments. Included in that should be a case of "Am I going to need to stay here?"

When you're out there, it's continual assessment of the risks. It's pretty natural to balance up the "How safe do I feel" and "How needed am I". Keeping an unconcious driver's airway open increases the latter significantly. But, at the end of the day, the basic rule is always personal safety. I'd always be prepared to run, and if I only felt safe back behind the barriers then that's where I'd go. I don't think anyone would question a decision to get to safety - as has already been said, you've got to take the appropriate decision at that time and retrospect is a wonderful thing.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Not always as straight forward as that.
Get a Clerk of the Course away from a race meeting, sit him down with a pint of something nice and he'll explain.

Yes, and over the next pint we can always put him right.

Regards

Jim

[Mark Stevens]

As a spectator on the banking at Quarry during this incident all I can say is you are a braver man than I and my thanks to the marshals there that afternoon for their work.

There were a number of times I took a sharp intake of breath when some of the cars took a wide line and saw the car at the last minute.
You were very alert though and I think there were at least two occassions when you made quick steps away from the car.
(Was the straight hand in the air the signal for rescue?)

Considering it seemed a minor tap to the right rear from the Ferrari I was initially surprised that the driver did not get out but probably felt harder than it looked.

Time did seem to slow down to me as well as it felt like ages before the rescue unit entered on blues (right in front of a fast approaching group of cars as well which was brave) but very well parked to protect the vehicle.

I assumed you must be the person in charge at the post because I would not have imagined someone being asked to go and do that on their own. I did feel you could have done with someone standing and holding on nearby just watching traffic ready to pull you away.

Just as a spectator there does seem to me to be a bit of an issue with visibility of yellows at Quarry, especially if the post in the centre is waving then the proceeding flag tower is only stationary but being so high and on top of the fence I wonder if it can be seen at all.

[Tall Chris]

I guess every situation is unique, yes it would be horrendous for the driver (and of course yourself) had you been injured or worse in this situation, however if you had returned to the bank and the disorientated driver had got out of the car and wandered across the track . . . . . .

It's just a shame that waved yellows don't create as safe an area of track as we might hope for.

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by Tall Chris

It's just a shame that waved yellows don't create as safe an area of track as we might hope for.

That's the real problem, I think. We should be able to get on with the job in hand without having to be constantly looking over our shoulders. At Vale, Silverstone recently I had to hold my breath several times while trackside as cars were locking up & running wide, even under double waved yellows. They would have hit a JCB before hitting me but that's not the point.

[andy97]

I agree that driver discipline for yellows & waved double yellows is not always what it should be, sadly, but as a driver I think that if waved yellows, and particularly waved double yellows, are being ignored then the race should be red flagged because it's obvious that drivers are ignoring mandatory safety requirements and therefore putting others at risk. Personally I have seen it done once, in a Monoposto race at Donington some years ago, although others may have had similar experiences..

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by andy97

I agree that driver discipline for yellows & waved double yellows is not always what it should be, sadly, but as a driver I think that if waved yellows, and particularly waved double yellows, are being ignored then the race should be red flagged because it's obvious that drivers are ignoring mandatory safety requirements and therefore putting others at risk.

That's all part of the judgement we, as individual incident marshals, IOs & Post Chiefs make when dealing with incidents. Drivers' reaction to waved yellows is an important criterion when assessing whether or not an incident can be dealt with safely without the use of the Safety Car, if available, or requesting a race stop. Any drivers losing control under yellows will be reported &, I hope, severely dealt with.

[aland]

in that situation I would be yelling to my observer for a red flag but massive respect to the marshal for having balls of steel and staying out there. the way I have been trained is that if the driver is breathing, has a pulse and is talking to leave him and get yourself safe, then once the red comes out get back out there.

the waved yellow is a debate that could go on and on and probably adds to the debate as to whether cars should be fitted with control to car radios but if the drivers would fully obey the waved yellow then we wouldnt need radios. it seems to be that clubbies obey flags far better than drivers of higher series. not even going to mention BTCC here as those guys are a breed apart