Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Classic Cars Monthly Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Historic Racing Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 4 Oct 2017, 11:09 (Ref:3771728)   #1
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,809
MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!
Colour vision test

I see that due to the introduction of LED lightboxes at circuits, MSA are mandating colour vision tests as part of the race licence medical from January. Given that around 10% of the male population have some form of colour vision deficiency I wonder if this will cause early retirement of some drivers?
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Old 4 Oct 2017, 11:28 (Ref:3771736)   #2
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,981
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGDavid View Post
I see that due to the introduction of LED lightboxes at circuits, MSA are mandating colour vision tests as part of the race licence medical from January. Given that around 10% of the male population have some form of colour vision deficiency I wonder if this will cause early retirement of some drivers?
dont remember having a race licence medical where i didnt do a colour sight test
andy97 is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Oct 2017, 11:58 (Ref:3771751)   #3
356sc
Veteran
 
356sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United Kingdom
Camberley
Posts: 798
356sc should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I did think the red/green colour test was always part of the medical.....not sure why they need to retest this every year though, as I am pretty sure you are either colour blind or not, and this does not change!
356sc is offline  
__________________
Will Stephens
60s endurance 1965 356sc #49
Mag 7's #60
Quote
Old 4 Oct 2017, 12:02 (Ref:3771753)   #4
delta
Subscriber
Veteran
 
delta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United Kingdom
Reading UK
Posts: 8,693
delta has a real shot at the podium!delta has a real shot at the podium!delta has a real shot at the podium!delta has a real shot at the podium!delta has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy97 View Post
dont remember having a race licence medical where i didnt do a colour sight test
Yes me tooooooooooooooooooooo.
delta is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Oct 2017, 12:18 (Ref:3771757)   #5
Lancsbreaker
Veteran
 
Lancsbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
England
Padiham, Lancashire
Posts: 4,006
Lancsbreaker has a real shot at the podium!Lancsbreaker has a real shot at the podium!Lancsbreaker has a real shot at the podium!Lancsbreaker has a real shot at the podium!
Did wonder when I read the MSA Blue Book updates just how much more complicated this new test was going to be, and why seeing LED light boxes was any harder than seeing a flag?

Perhaps its to do with the colour Purple?

Although I do know one driver who's medical allegedly included the Doctor asking him "what colour is this red pullover I'm wearing?"
Lancsbreaker is online now  
__________________
Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;)
Quote
Old 4 Oct 2017, 12:49 (Ref:3771765)   #6
356sc
Veteran
 
356sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United Kingdom
Camberley
Posts: 798
356sc should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker View Post
Although I do know one driver who's medical allegedly included the Doctor asking him "what colour is this red pullover I'm wearing?"
356sc is offline  
__________________
Will Stephens
60s endurance 1965 356sc #49
Mag 7's #60
Quote
Old 4 Oct 2017, 12:55 (Ref:3771766)   #7
Mike Harte
Veteran
 
Mike Harte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
United Kingdom
W. Yorkshire
Posts: 5,470
Mike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker View Post
Although I do know one driver who's medical allegedly included the Doctor asking him "what colour is this red pullover I'm wearing?"
Well, that's obvious. It's green.
Mike Harte is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Oct 2017, 17:30 (Ref:3771830)   #8
JasperClan
Racer
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
United Kingdom
Benwick
Posts: 192
JasperClan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridJasperClan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The correct answer was green as the question was what colour is my green jumper.

Way back when I applied for my original race licence the original test was the multi coloured dot and number one as proposed now, and I was unable to reach the required standard. My GP at the time also attended race meetings in a professional capacity and I remember him contacting the RAC, as it was at the time, on my behalf pointing out that although I could not reach the required standard of the official test, my colour vision was adequate to recognise the required flags. Following this the requirement was changed to the current simple colour recognition in the blue book.

I'm sure I was not alone with this and I can only see, as mentioned previously, a lot of early retirements and loss of revenue to the MSA. When will they stop putting obstacles in the form of rule changes in the way of competitors every year and instead think of helping and retaining them.
JasperClan is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Oct 2017, 19:34 (Ref:3771854)   #9
oneofapair
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 137
oneofapair should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I have held a competition licence for over 20 years, I am also colour blind in the sense of the test. My doctor was confronted with an armful of Marshals flags that I borrowed from my local circuit. Having correctly named all the flags I duly passed the test and have not had a problem since. I have twice had my medical by a participating Motor racing doctor who conducted the test with some neat individual plastic wallets with relevant colours inside . I passed this also.
Over twenty plus years I have never had a Marshal flag or light recognition problem ! I have been preparing a car over the last couple of years at some consideable expense, to now be facing the fact that this new requirement will probably prevent me from racing it and leave me many pounds down at the same time.
A case of re inventing the wheel at some disruption to a good few Competitors who will no longer be applying for a licence! A considerable loss of revenue for the MSA.

I cant see why,having held a licence for twenty plus years with no problems why I cannot now have one!!
oneofapair is offline  
Quote
Old 5 Oct 2017, 04:42 (Ref:3771957)   #10
terence
Veteran
 
terence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Germany
Nordschleife
Posts: 12,853
terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Over here you have to go to an optitians for the test.Dont know if the owner of the group is a member of the DMSB board though.No more stress related for my Int C.
terence is offline  
__________________
Living the dream,Chief instruktor and racing on the worlds best circuits-The Nordschleife and Spa.Getting to drive the worlds best cars-someone has to do it, so glad its me.
Quote
Old 5 Oct 2017, 14:09 (Ref:3772094)   #11
Rudernst
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Germany
Hamburg
Posts: 722
Rudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
this comes completely out of the purple for me.....



RuE
Rudernst is offline  
Quote
Old 5 Oct 2017, 15:14 (Ref:3772103)   #12
GORDON STREETER
Veteran
 
GORDON STREETER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Spain
Kent+Mojacar Spain, but not always ?
Posts: 9,400
GORDON STREETER is going for a new world record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new world record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new world record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new world record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new world record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new world record!GORDON STREETER is going for a new world record!
[QUOTE=oneofapair;3771854]Over twenty plus years I have never had a Marshal flag or light recognition problem ! QUOTE]


I started racing in 1969 and have had a few yellow flag problems, like a few of us have had !!

Last edited by GORDON STREETER; 5 Oct 2017 at 15:19.
GORDON STREETER is online now  
__________________
Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa !
Quote
Old 5 Oct 2017, 16:17 (Ref:3772110)   #13
Lancsbreaker
Veteran
 
Lancsbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
England
Padiham, Lancashire
Posts: 4,006
Lancsbreaker has a real shot at the podium!Lancsbreaker has a real shot at the podium!Lancsbreaker has a real shot at the podium!Lancsbreaker has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasperClan View Post
The correct answer was green as the question was what colour is my green jumper.
Apologies for the colour identification error - I wasn't going to (green) grass you up.........

I reckon so long as you know what colour the rule book is you ought to be OK......
Lancsbreaker is online now  
__________________
Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;)
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2017, 08:13 (Ref:3772263)   #14
Gerard C
Veteran
 
Gerard C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
France
My place
Posts: 9,979
Gerard C has a real shot at the championship!Gerard C has a real shot at the championship!Gerard C has a real shot at the championship!Gerard C has a real shot at the championship!Gerard C has a real shot at the championship!
When I started racing learned on the hard way that if the sky looks green and the grass looks blue, this means you rolled the car
Gerard C is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2017, 10:25 (Ref:3772273)   #15
Tim Falce
Race Official
Veteran
 
Tim Falce's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
England
Very edge of S E London almost in Kent
Posts: 11,141
Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerard C View Post
When I started racing learned on the hard way that if the sky looks green and the grass looks blue, this means you rolled the car
My coffee has just been sprayed over the keyboard
Tim Falce is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2017, 11:37 (Ref:3772279)   #16
Dave Brand
Veteran
 
Dave Brand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
Hadfield, Derbyshire (UK)
Posts: 6,358
Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker View Post
I reckon so long as you know what colour the rule book is you ought to be OK......
The Brown Book?
Dave Brand is offline  
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person.
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 08:34 (Ref:3864935)   #17
Heightswitch
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
England
Oop Norf
Posts: 340
Heightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHeightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
These new rules are worrying me a little.. so much so that I feel an approach is needed to the MUK / FIA.. I wonder what their position is regarding the discrimination toward 75% of the male population who have some form of colour blindness.. red / green being the most common..

I have been thinking a lot about this and the fact that legally the MUK must be prepared to make reasonable adjustments to counter discrimination....

I have always been OK differentiating primary Red and green and seeing flags but they are now saying that with the use of light boxes there is a need to pass a colour test and achieve a minimum score...

It strikes me that the MUK can make a very simple adjustment which in my mind won't cost any money to implement and will remove any issue with colour blind drivers completely...

We all know the flag signals (well most of us do so consider this....

Red. Is always held out (not waved) to indicate session stopped
Yellows are waved... Yellow lights Flashed.... But we can see yellow!!
Blues.. Flash (we have no issue with Blue)
Green is generally waved as a flag but left fixed illuminated as a light...

The solution is very simple... Just make the RED light a permanently immuminated light... All others Flash!!! That way us colour impaired folk will see either a green flashing light which we know is flashing so even if we think it is Red we know it is Green.. and when we see a Red fixed light which we might think is green, We will know it is Red...

No changes required to any flags, or light boxes!!

I wonder if the MUK / FIA have even considered this before again placing barriers in the way of Blokes who just want to go racing.. I say Blokes because genetically colour impairment affects 75% of men to a greater or lesser degree!!

This years medical remains a worry to me. !!
Heightswitch is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 10:22 (Ref:3864951)   #18
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,809
MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!
I always understood colour deficiency affected c. 10% of males
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/colour-vision-deficiency/
but moving on....

it may not be anything like the problem you think it is. Dr Mark Green of Motor Racing Medics has been working with MUK on this subject since way back last year, and has developed an LED lightbox test which MUK recognise as a valid replacement if one cannot pass the Ishiwara book tests.
I can only pass 3 of Ishiwara (not the 24 required) but the lightbox was not a problem. Once the colour test has been passed it is logged on the MUK system and you do not have to re-take it annually.
Try not to worry but I do recommend you give MSM a call. Don't forget you don't have to go to Gatwick as they run a clinic at Autosport in the New Year on a pre-booking basis.
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 18:58 (Ref:3865066)   #19
Alan Morgan
Veteran
 
Alan Morgan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Addlestone, Surrey
Posts: 1,272
Alan Morgan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heightswitch View Post
These new rules are worrying me a little.. so much so that I feel an approach is needed to the MUK / FIA.. I wonder what their position is regarding the discrimination toward 75% of the male population who have some form of colour blindness.. red / green being the most common..

I have been thinking a lot about this and the fact that legally the MUK must be prepared to make reasonable adjustments to counter discrimination....

I have always been OK differentiating primary Red and green and seeing flags but they are now saying that with the use of light boxes there is a need to pass a colour test and achieve a minimum score...

It strikes me that the MUK can make a very simple adjustment which in my mind won't cost any money to implement and will remove any issue with colour blind drivers completely...

We all know the flag signals (well most of us do so consider this....

Red. Is always held out (not waved) to indicate session stopped
Yellows are waved... Yellow lights Flashed.... But we can see yellow!!
Blues.. Flash (we have no issue with Blue)
Green is generally waved as a flag but left fixed illuminated as a light...

The solution is very simple... Just make the RED light a permanently immuminated light... All others Flash!!! That way us colour impaired folk will see either a green flashing light which we know is flashing so even if we think it is Red we know it is Green.. and when we see a Red fixed light which we might think is green, We will know it is Red...

No changes required to any flags, or light boxes!!

I wonder if the MUK / FIA have even considered this before again placing barriers in the way of Blokes who just want to go racing.. I say Blokes because genetically colour impairment affects 75% of men to a greater or lesser degree!!

This years medical remains a worry to me. !!
Wise words mate... We have race licence medicals at the Historic FF2000 AGM every year. A driver who passed last year failed this time, even though the criteria were the same. He now has to do the Motor Racing Medics lightbox test. He's been racing for many years and is the least likely guy to have a silly accident. I hope he passes (I'm pretty sure he will) but it might be something for Motorsport UK to look at if they really want motorsport to be more accessible.
Alan Morgan is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 20:09 (Ref:3865072)   #20
grantp
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,369
grantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Maybe it's time to play the discrimination card.

After all there is no reason at all why the lights system should not be changed to make it more inclusive.
grantp is offline  
Quote
Old 22 Nov 2018, 22:15 (Ref:3865107)   #21
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heightswitch View Post
These new rules are worrying me a little.. so much so that I feel an approach is needed to the MUK / FIA.. I wonder what their position is regarding the discrimination toward 75% of the male population who have some form of colour blindness.. red / green being the most common..

I have been thinking a lot about this and the fact that legally the MUK must be prepared to make reasonable adjustments to counter discrimination....

I have always been OK differentiating primary Red and green and seeing flags but they are now saying that with the use of light boxes there is a need to pass a colour test and achieve a minimum score...

It strikes me that the MUK can make a very simple adjustment which in my mind won't cost any money to implement and will remove any issue with colour blind drivers completely...

We all know the flag signals (well most of us do so consider this....

Red. Is always held out (not waved) to indicate session stopped
Yellows are waved... Yellow lights Flashed.... But we can see yellow!!
Blues.. Flash (we have no issue with Blue)
Green is generally waved as a flag but left fixed illuminated as a light...

The solution is very simple... Just make the RED light a permanently immuminated light... All others Flash!!! That way us colour impaired folk will see either a green flashing light which we know is flashing so even if we think it is Red we know it is Green.. and when we see a Red fixed light which we might think is green, We will know it is Red...

No changes required to any flags, or light boxes!!

I wonder if the MUK / FIA have even considered this before again placing barriers in the way of Blokes who just want to go racing.. I say Blokes because genetically colour impairment affects 75% of men to a greater or lesser degree!!

This years medical remains a worry to me. !!

Great thinking, maybe the administrators need to pass an IQ test before they are allowed to take office, and maybe an oath that they are required to facilitate participation in racing.


Could also leave a dirty great black X in the middle of the red light box to indicate that the track is red flagged.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Nov 2018, 09:02 (Ref:3865205)   #22
one-two
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 244
one-two should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I am amazed at the suggestion that 75% of the male population has some form of colourblindness. A quick google suggests it's more like 8%. What am I, or the poster who made the suggestion, missing? A decimal point, perhaps?
one-two is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Nov 2018, 09:46 (Ref:3865208)   #23
oneofapair
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 137
oneofapair should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
An 18 year old could pass the 2016 test under the requirements back then,and then has until reaching 40 years or so( self declaration) filling in licence application before he reaches the need to have medical each year.

Is that age discrimination?
oneofapair is offline  
Quote
Old 23 Nov 2018, 14:50 (Ref:3865235)   #24
GregUK
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 276
GregUK should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Like many men, I have a red/green defect.

In my latter year's of racing, I learned how to 'trick' the Ishihara Test (the pages of coloured dots) - knowing I had the defect, I looked behind the obvious answer and generally did OK.

In the early days, they used to have the RAC quack wave flags around at Belgrade Square.

The only time I have ever had an issue with colour vision was on the footplate of a train. On a particularly straight and level stretch of track outside York the block signalling could be seen numerous sections into the distance. The driver could see that the furthest signal was green - I could see the light but couldn't tell its colour. Not being able to identify a 24w bulb at about 5 miles has never really caused me a problem!
GregUK is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Nov 2018, 19:55 (Ref:3866157)   #25
Heightswitch
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
England
Oop Norf
Posts: 340
Heightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHeightswitch should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Great thinking, maybe the administrators need to pass an IQ test before they are allowed to take office, and maybe an oath that they are required to facilitate participation in racing.


Could also leave a dirty great black X in the middle of the red light box to indicate that the track is red flagged.
Yep. as you say whichever way the MUK would like to do it is fine with me but the principle point is that it is a virtually zero cost item which could be implemented which will remove all issues regarding colour impairment. as the more google orientated folk have pointed out it is approx 8% not 75 but regardless the sentiment is the same... The adoption of LED light boxes should make it extremely simple to add a symbol or just have a permanently illuminated red.. Just as a flag signal would be displayed??

The MUK it seems is happy for clubs to have to spend a fortune on re-branding surely this would make things more inclusive for everyone, add clarity to everyone..worst case being the need for a new flag with a symbol incorporated.. Perhaps as an alternative the Green flag / or light box with the national speed limit sign

It seems as usual people are devising work around tests to fall back on when the std tests cannot be passed. There should be absolutely no need for such tests when the whole issue can be eliminated without any difficulty!

Maybe these thoughts and comments are just far to simple for the higher echelons of the motorsport world to consider.... !!

I wonder what the Chair of the MUK would think.

Last edited by Heightswitch; 26 Nov 2018 at 20:01.
Heightswitch is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Medicals & colour vision MGDavid Racers Forum 11 14 May 2006 21:45
Gordon Kirby's Inside Track/chris Pook's Vision Taking Shape ¡As-de-mim! ChampCar World Series 31 12 Feb 2003 11:33
Speed Vision Earnhardt seatbelt pic Ken NASCAR & Stock Car Racing 6 14 Jun 2001 22:45
night vision marcus Sportscar & GT Racing 5 24 Jun 2000 00:04


All times are GMT. The time now is 14:53.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.