Mosler ruled out of British GT

[Silver 3]

Sorry guys -you miss my point--- 10 cars is a joke.If making it "affordable" creates 30 plus surely that is a better event.Taking an elitist approach and having no base is destined for failure. Creating series that caters for wider interest ( even if it is in classes) is surely a better basis for any series.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Creating series that caters for wider interest ( even if it is in classes) is surely a better basis for any series.

For club racing, yes. For a series that is a serious GT championship which acts as a stepping stone for potential LMS/FIA GT squads, as well as long standing GT teams wishing to compete at a top national level, no.

[Gunman]

Originally Posted by d.rocky

the Moslers that are racing over here and the ones that race in europe(mosler challenge ect) and the Thunder Asia Mosler are built in St.ives Cambs.
shorty is the MD for Mosler europe but Mosler is an american company.

Warren Mosler the founded it in 1985 and is president of Mosler Automotive.

They all originate in Riviera Beach, FL as far as I know. The race cars are shipped in pieces to the UK for Martin and his crew to finish. Street cars are all US built now, but at one time some were being built in the UK, for the Euro market.

I'm a former employee of Mosler, but I still keep in touch with them. This sucks for Rollcentre...disqualifying them 3/4's of the way thru the season isn't right.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

First of all the Corvette is not a C5R lol, secondly yes that grid is large and that is good for a championship. Look at how many of the cars are actual top level GT3 specifcation though, sure they might be GT3 cars but they arent in the same league as those of what we do have in British GT, most of the cars entered above are older style GT3 cup machinery with a couple of current spec GT3 cars thrown in there too.

Get the British GT grid and race them alongside that grid and I bet you that 90% of the British GT GT3 runners would finish ahead of the GT cup front runners. British GT is aimed at Pro/amatuer drivers and teams, GT cup UK is, as always stated by the organisers, for gentlemen drivers and smaller teams. As a direct result it is always going to be more likely to have larger grids in GT cup UK and series like it such as Britcar. The competition is of a higher standard in British GT and as a result the costs are higher to keep up with the front running teams and the economic climate the way it is certainly isnt helping British GT at the moment, its better for smaller teams and gentleman drivers to race in smaller series, but the recession wont last forever and British GT will be stronger once again at the end of it hopefully. IMO.

you need to look up some timesheets, I think your theory just got consigned to the WPB!

BGT have not done Donnington GP, so going back to Snett where both have run recently:

Pole time for Q1 BGT was the Mosler on a 1:09.286
Pole time for Q2 BGT was a 430 GT3 on a 1:08.455
Fastest lap R1 BGT was the Ascari on a 1:09.731
Fastest lap R2 BGT was the 430 GT3 on a 1:09.773

compared to

Pole time for Q1 GT Cup was the Viper on a 1:08.664
Fastest lap R1 GT Cup was the Viper on a 1:09.558
Fastest lap R2 GT Cup was the Viper on a 1:09.012

GT cup was a 29 car grid, vs BGT was 12

you can't go making sweeping staments like that, to make out that the GT cup teams are all micky-mouse is just showing a HUGE lack of knowledge of the people in this kind of racing, IMHO there are more proffessional teams in GT cup than BGT.

[rdjones]

This a joke, I really do feel sorry for Shorty and the boys at Rollcentre. It is worth pointing out that there have been Mosler's in the British GT Championships since at least 2002 (I remember seeing one race at Donington in the last round of the season)

I just get the impression that Mr Ratel doesn't want the car in any of his series and he want's only big well know manufactors.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Simon S

you need to look up some timesheets, I think your theory just got consigned to the WPB!

BGT have not done Donnington GP, so going back to Snett where both have run recently:

Pole time for Q1 BGT was the Mosler on a 1:09.286
Pole time for Q2 BGT was a 430 GT3 on a 1:08.455
Fastest lap R1 BGT was the Ascari on a 1:09.731
Fastest lap R2 BGT was the 430 GT3 on a 1:09.773

compared to

Pole time for Q1 GT Cup was the Viper on a 1:08.664
Fastest lap R1 GT Cup was the Viper on a 1:09.558
Fastest lap R2 GT Cup was the Viper on a 1:09.012

GT cup was a 29 car grid, vs BGT was 12

you can't go making sweeping staments like that, to make out that the GT cup teams are all micky-mouse is just showing a HUGE lack of knowledge of the people in this kind of racing, IMHO there are more proffessional teams in GT cup than BGT.

I dont know about the rules for GT Cup UK but I would be bet that the regulations are somewhat more open than what they are in British GT. All it would take is for the GT cup guys to have a 10 or even 15% smaller restrictor than the British GT cars and that would be enough to make them signifcantly faster over a lap, doesent matter who the British GT guys had in the car, could be Michael Schumacher himself but it woudnt be enough to make the differnce.

British GT seems to penalise their GT3 cars quite heavily compared to other GT3 championships, that much I do know. Compare the times to those of the Belgian GT runners at Spa this year, they were signifcantly slower, and the main reason for that is that the British GT cars run with a slightly larger restrictor. The fact that the GT cup UK guys can lap quicker than the British GT guys I would assume is more down to the regulations rather than talent.

Speaking of talent, lets look at some of the drivers who have raced in British GT so far this year. Allan Simonsen, Vincent Vosse, Stuart Hall, Dan Brown, Adam Wilcox. Now lets look at whos been in GT cup UK so far. Mike Gardener, Paul Hogarth, Peter Seldon, Michael Donavon. Now, I dont know what everyone else here thinks but personally, after comparing some of both championships top drivers I think that the British GT championship has a signifcantly higher calibre of drivers at the sharp end of the grid. Although this has gone massively off topic now and theres really nothing more to say from me so I will take a step back now.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Simon S

you can't go making sweeping staments like that, to make out that the GT cup teams are all micky-mouse is just showing a HUGE lack of knowledge of the people in this kind of racing, IMHO there are more proffessional teams in GT cup than BGT.

That is the point I was making earlier.
While we are off topic(not sure we are actually) Simon i am agreeing with you here and you appear to agree with the principle of what I have said--- can you tell me how this position you are expressing here is different to what you were sticking pins in me earlier this year(&last) about situation in Australia--or have you seen the light?
Salleen's comments are elitist nonsense--who do you think is going to do the paying for "professional" drivers? Ten cars and little public interest are not going to excite to many manufacturers or sponsors!

[Speed-King]

Although this has gone massively off topic now

Not really. The overarching question is:

What is a national GT-series suppossed to be?

The Mosler controversy is part of that question, as is your argument about driver quality.

As I see it, there are two main parameters on which a GT series can be defined:

1. The cars: the possiblities range from a Spec-Series (say Porsche Cup) to a wide open run-what-you-brung-ruleset like in Dutch Supercars or Belcar until a few years ago. GT3 is somewhere in the middle, you have a good variety of car types, but every Ferrari is like the other, as is every Porsche.

2. The drivers: the scale goes from complete amateurs to fully professionals, with experienced gentleman drivers and semi-pros in between.

Ideally, every series would be all-pro, with a wide open rulebook. As we know, that's not gonna happen, so we have two basic possiblities: Go pro-ish and have a tightly regulated rulebook or cater to amateurs who want to play with their favourite (and sometimes selfbuilt or selfdesigned) toys. As evidenced by the success of DSC, Britcar or Belcar until the GT3-era I would tend to go for the latter. And it's not like that concept would completely rule out professional drivers, Belcar had teams like SRT and GLPK and drivers like Kumpen and Longin...

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by betablocker

ascari has been wound up and the factory closed

When did that happen?

Tom.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Salleen's comments are elitist nonsense--who do you think is going to do the paying for "professional" drivers? Ten cars and little public interest are not going to excite to many manufacturers or sponsors!

Once the recession is over lots of teams will be paying for professional drivers, just like they did before. Grids of 18-25 and sometimes more werent uncommon in British GT last year, as in previous years. As for the series wishing to attract manufacturers or sponsors, British GT isnt aimed at manufacturers, it is a national level racing series aimed at small professional teams and professional and amatuer drivers.

My elitist nonsense, as you describe my comments, are because we are now discussing which is the premier GT racing series in the UK, which is British GT. GT cup UK has its place, it isnt usually discussed here on this forum but usually in the national and club racing forum here on ten-tenths, because it is fundamentally a club series.

As for not being off topic, this thread is about the Mosler being thrown out of British GT. Something which seems to have been forgotton about over the last few posts and something which I myself am guilty of too which is why I think we should get it back on topic. IMO.

[KA]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I dont know about the rules for GT Cup UK but I would be bet that the regulations are somewhat more open than what they are in British GT. All it would take is for the GT cup guys to have a 10 or even 15% smaller restrictor than the British GT cars and that would be enough to make them signifcantly faster over a lap, doesent matter who the British GT guys had in the car, could be Michael Schumacher himself but it woudnt be enough to make the differnce.

British GT seems to penalise their GT3 cars quite heavily compared to other GT3 championships, that much I do know. Compare the times to those of the Belgian GT runners at Spa this year, they were signifcantly slower, and the main reason for that is that the British GT cars run with a slightly larger restrictor. .

The Belgian cars were much faster than their British GT equivalents- as a comparison:

1st session, Brit GT- Dan Brown (Mosler) 2m29.566
1st session, Belgian GT- Wauters/van Hooydonk (Viper) 2m25.880
2nd session, Brit GT- Allan Simonsen (Ferrari) 2m26.396 (and no-one else got below 2m28....)
2nd session, Belgian GT- Renard//Vosse (Aston) 2m23.950!

DSC suggested that a big part of the difference could be tyres- Brit GT's control Avons being clearly slower than the Belgian series Michelins.

As DSC's qualifying report put it back in May:

Originally Posted by DSC

The most significant aspect of qualifying, however, was the relative speed of the Belgian runners. Local knowledge is certainly an asset, but is Vincent Vosse really six seconds faster than Jamie Smyth round Spa in a DBRS9 prepared by the same team as the British driver? And is Jeffrey van Hooydonk really three and a half seconds faster in his KRK Viper than Aaron Scott is in his ABG Dodge Coupe? More likely, the significant gulf between the Michelin and Avon control tyres has been very well illustrated.

What rubber are GT Cup and Britcar using? If tyres can make such a big difference in speed between otherwise similar GT3 cars in 2 different series, then a comparison of performance between Brit GT, GT Cup and Britcar seems pretty pointless unless all three are on the same tyres

[ger80]

Think Britcar uses Dunlop like Dutch Supercar

[betablocker]

Originally Posted by airbusA346

When did that happen?

Tom.

About a year ago everything shipped off to his spainish resort, factory was for sale rent in back of autosport not that long ago.

[Dan Friel]

Originally Posted by ger80

Think Britcar uses Dunlop like Dutch Supercar

No it's an Avon control tyre. Which I expect explains the massive difference in times quoted above.

[ger80]

Britcar and Brit GT both use Avon?

[Dan Friel]

Sorry.. misread the earlier post.

Brit GT - Avon
Britcar - Dunlop
GT Cup - Pirelli

So comparing times is a bit tricky.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

My elitist nonsense, as you describe my comments, are because we are now discussing which is the premier GT racing series in the UK, which is British GT. GT cup UK has its place, it isnt usually discussed here on this forum but usually in the national and club racing forum here on ten-tenths, because it is fundamentally a club series.

sorry, this is where I take issue with you...

BGT *is* a national club championship, you can dress it up as much as you want, but it's NOT on an international ticket.

if you actually look at most of the GT cup runners, almost all of them have run in BGT before, as have a lot from Britcar.

I would also argue that NO BGT team have ever paid a driver (in recent history), if there is a paid driver in the car that's because the owner is paying for them as a fast co-driver (I accept this may be channelled though the team, but that's not the point).

Essentially, BGT needs to get back to sensible cars and budgets, dump all the pretentious crap and concentrate on the racing, as in it's current form it's a worthless championship.

[dj choc ice]

Beechdean pay Jamie Smyth to race for them, as im pretty sure Allan Simonsen is paid to race in the Christians in motorsport Ferrari ferrari alongside Hector Lester as well.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

Beechdean pay Jamie Smyth to race for them, as im pretty sure Allan Simonsen is paid to race in the Christians in motorsport Ferrari ferrari alongside Hector Lester as well.

just makes my point, Hector pays for Allan, he does the same in other championships, like Aus GT.

Christians in motorsport *is* Hector.

I would assume the same for Beechdean

[renkadima]

Professional drivers in BGT currently - Allan Simonsen, Matt Griffin, Adam Wilcox, Aaron Scott, Jamie Smyth, Alex Mortimer. Others who have competed this year - Michael Bentwood, José Balbiani, Stéphane Daoudi, Phil Keen, Vincent Vosse, Mike Wilds.

[Steven Humphrey]

Looking on the brightside-the Ascari failed to finish today!!!

[d.rocky]

well i never thought my first thread on here would create such a arguement/debate.
BGt, GT Cup or Britcar whichever is best is.... down to opinion on what a person thinks makes up the best championship whether it be the drivers, cars or gride numbers.
its quite clear BGT is in trouble big time though and IMO its at its worst right now.

oh and just to go back to what the thread was originally about i think we all agree that whats happened to the rollcentre crew is terrible and should never have happened and its also very damaging for the MSA's, SRO's and BGT's image.

[MJ_N_09]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Looking on the brightside-the Ascari failed to finish today!!!

Karma is so sweet.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by d.rocky

oh and just to go back to what the thread was originally about i think we all agree that whats happened to the rollcentre crew is terrible and should never have happened and its also very damaging for the MSA's, SRO's and BGT's image.

I think the long and short of it (no pun intended) is that you cannot do this kind of thing halfway (or in this case 3/4's) though a season, once an entry has been accepted you *have* to go with it for that year.

the time to change the regs/throw out/allow cars is out of season - and preferably enough time before the season for people to put budget's etc in place.

this is EXACTLY what SRO have done before, I got stitched up with the ProSport (even though they had been running in BGT for 3 years previously) the only difference here is that MSA refused to even look at it (they knew there was no legitimate way to present this).

this time they have gone with semantics, usually the last refuge when your in the wrong.

My only hope is that with it being Martin and his operation being somewhat more high profile than me, he can get some more clout behind him.

At the end of the day, MSA need to grow some, and take BGT off SRO and give it to somebody that can actually do the job, including standing up to existing owners/teams.

[rich07]

I just can't stand the hypocrisy in this, both cars have questions over their eligibility but one of them is still in production and is the one being banned thanks to a protest by the team running a car that has smaller production numbers and isnt even built anymore. Has this world gone mad?? I'm guessing there arent that many Mosler roadcars out there but they would be greater in number then the Ascaris.

I'm not happy about this, we had to put up with this crap with regarding the Moslers in Australian GT, (they werent banned but the performance handicaps given to the Mosler raced by Craig Baird was nothing short of pathetic-its not his fault he's a damn good driver). I feel greatly for the hard working team at Rollcentre Racing and hopefully something gets worked out and the Moslers get back in again.