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Old 13 Dec 2005, 15:28 (Ref:1483194)   #1
ss_collins
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Future of British motorsport

http://tentenths.com/forum/journal.p...owjournal&j=23

thoughts? discuss...
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Old 13 Dec 2005, 16:13 (Ref:1483220)   #2
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Just a couple of questions!

1) with respect to the following:
Below the council there are the specialist committees, these will become more rigidly defined in their make up. For example the racing committee will be made up of a chairman, at least one professional racing driver, one professional team principal, at least one amateur racer (equal amounts of professional and amateur), one amateur team owner, one marshal, one person who has been involved in the organisation of racing events and in some circumstances extra members, such as in racing a circuit owner or promoter. The make up would differ slightly to the need of the area of the sport – ie rallying would also feature co-drivers.

So how are you going to "elect" these people? After all you want democracy!

2) with respect to the following:
The racing committee would not under any circumstances have any member actively involved in the organisation of events, with the exception of a promoter or circuit owner who may sit on the board. No member may vote on any issue that involves them in any way for example a BRSCC member may not vote on any issue specifically regarding BRSCC series or event. This rule will apply to all the committees including the council.

So what happens when something crops up that impacts on everybody? Also there will be some 'elements' of each committee that would be unable to vote on every issue!

3) with respect to the following:
This draconian set of simple rules should reduce or remove the vested interests that blight the sport at the moment.

What makes you think these are draconian? I don't think they go far enough!

4) with respect to the following:
In a change to the way things are run the committees will be responsible for awarding championship permits and have right of veto over individual events. They would also have the responsibility of creating, modifying all rules regarding their discipline

This is just downright idiotic! For example the Speed Events committee would have the right of veto over the calendar of the BRITISH HILLCLIMB CHAMPIONSHIP. That cannot bode well as it would leave the CHAMPIONSHIP Co-Ordinator in a very exposed and somewhat precarious situation where his calendar was rejected and he had to start again! As for the second part of the statement the sub-committees already are responsible for 'craeting, modifying all rules regarding their discipline' the problem is the GENERAL rules that apply to all forms of Motor Sport which in themselves are contradictory.

5) with respect to the following:
No member of any of these committees would receive payment from the MSA, other than travel expenses and perhaps hotel rooms on committee nights for those based further away.

I thought that was the case now!

6) with respect to the following:
A immediate review of all racing championship permits is required, all permits would be rescinded and only reissued after the series or championship has justified its existence through grid numbers or ‘exceptional circumstance’.

You cannot rescind the franchises to run the championships that have already been signed. Each franchise is licensed annually to run its championship and must submit its proposal for each new year. It is not guaranteed to get approval and is subject to scrutiny.

7) with respect to the following:
Create an industry gold standard in association with the MIA

Smacks of the Red Tape you were complaining about earlier!

and finally...

8) with respect to the following:
It would make for a busy and perhaps initially difficult period for those involved but long term it would leave British motorsport in a much healthier condition.

You may well be right however I suspect the cure may well see off the patient permanently as well as discouraging a lot of people from getting involved.

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Old 13 Dec 2005, 16:19 (Ref:1483226)   #3
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The STIG should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
why is everyone against top flight rallying in this country?
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Old 13 Dec 2005, 16:23 (Ref:1483231)   #4
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I do not have permission to access that link. What is it?
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Old 13 Dec 2005, 16:28 (Ref:1483235)   #5
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chezza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchezza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchezza should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Blimey that takes some reading.

Whilst overall I agree with many of the points made I do not think, that no matter how many people agree with what is said, there will be any changes made within the MSA or motorsport on any level. As long as people keep paying their licence fees the MSA will continue. Many of the people in motorsport only care about them getting to race, not about the sport as a whole, and until you get them thinking about the whole picture nothing will change, which is a shame because this sport is in decline. We had several British International champions this season and unfortunately two high profile deaths too...motorsport hardly got a mention in the sports personality of the year sport summery, probably mainly due to the attitude towards the sport of those not involved.

Stig...where the hell does it say in there that he is against rallying? Sam is a rally boy at heart and in no way shape or forum is against rallying.

The link is to the most recent entry in Sam's journal.
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Old 13 Dec 2005, 16:34 (Ref:1483240)   #6
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Originally Posted by chezza
Stig...where the hell does it say in there that he is against rallying? Sam is a rally boy at heart and in no way shape or forum is against rallying.
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The agreement between the forestry commission and the MSA regarding rally usage should be reviewed with regards to costs worked out on a basis of damage done to stages, four wheel drive stage rally cars create the most damage so should pay more per car, two wheel drive less and road and endurance rallies less again. Saving the grass roots money...
and killing off Great Britain's round of the WRC. Brilliant.
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Old 13 Dec 2005, 16:39 (Ref:1483241)   #7
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No he doesn't say that at all. Its just talking about a fairer share of costs. There is no intention of killing off any forms of motorsport in this country. The point Sam makes is a fair one...and it certainly doesn't say that he is against the sport.
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Old 13 Dec 2005, 16:54 (Ref:1483257)   #8
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JimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJimW should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid

Lots to comment on but I will restrict myself to two observations.

Do you really think that it is the structure, committees etc. within the MSA which are the problem? In my experience of organisations, the committees can be almost irrelevant to what actually happens.

Whether or not the Blue Book is copyright does not affect whether it can be freely available, that is a separate issue.

I would like to have the Regulations published on the website. Someone told me that they were there but I have not been able to find them. But don't get me started on the website. From chosen domain name to navigation through to content it should be an example to us all. An example of how not to do it, I mean.

Regards

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Old 13 Dec 2005, 17:04 (Ref:1483263)   #9
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Steve 1) open to ideas here, 2) If it effects everyone then all are equal and can vote it just that if for example you were looking at the permit for a BRSCC seroes a BRSCC member could not have a vote. 3) please add to them 4) yes they could veto the BHC dates - but why should they? if they veto an event then there must be problem with it. (if unhappy you could always appealy to the council). Agree to the second point and the cttes would deal with these contradictions.
5) is that the case, including the council and board? only the full timers should be paid.
6) am aware of that but we have the same point on this very forum all the time about why championship x is getting a permit etc.. the specialist cttes would amalgamate or cull as required, no getting out by being a 'series'.
7) not really this is more an industry thing for firms that supply the sport, this would show that they support the sport and are fair to deal with.
8) no I think it would encourage more - but yes its harsh medicine though steve you did suggest earlier that you would be harsher.

Stig chap - aside from stealing the name of my evil twin you are mislead - I'm not against the top level of brit rallyig - in fact I love it - but I do feel its unfair that an event like the Rally of Kent - 95% 2WD has to pay the same usage fees as the WRC - even though it does less damage. So in some ways the club rally scene is subsidising the professional scene, hardly right is it.


JimW - you kinda make my point - the cttes are ineffectual often so yes the structure is the problem. Making the BB online and copyright free as a pdf perhaps would certainly be helpful.
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Old 13 Dec 2005, 18:10 (Ref:1483316)   #10
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The point that worries me the most is the "Gold Standard"
These awards are most commonly given out at a cost, a cost a lot of the smaller hardworking ones cant cover, so how is this award going to be awarded?
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Old 13 Dec 2005, 19:35 (Ref:1483374)   #11
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Devolution of power

The easiest way to move towards what SAM is advocating would be to make the various committees autonomous. Give them the power to compile their own set of regulations given that certain elements (e.g. safety) would have to be standardised. Remove the costly layer of bureaucrats and managers and redirect the money saved to the committees.

With the competitors license fees rolling in why do the various championships also have to pay for the priviledge of running their own championship? Surely the grass roots sports need to keep their hard earned sponsorship cash rather than handing a chunk of it over to the MSA to fritter away!

Onto my list of questions:

1) I have no idea how you could 'elect' members of a committe that have such a wide ranging background that SAM suggests. How would you arrange an election of the representatives for the circuits? Get the various Circuit Managers to vote?

4) I could easily see some 'political' reason creeping in why vetos would be exercised. Before long you would get factiuons forming and there would be loads of back biting.

5) as I understand it only the full timers are paid to attend Committee Meetings, the rest only get expenses - admittedly very generous expenses!

6) I suspect you are confusing the MSA controlled championships with those they have little control over. The main NATIONAL championships (e.g. BTCC) are well controlled by the MSA, the proliferation of championships which results in six car grids to some extent is driven by business. What is needed is a better standard by which these championships are given the go ahead plus the ability to pull the plug when they are failing.

7) I just shudder at the 'GOLD STANDARD' concept. It is just another way to paint over the incompetent way certain aspects of a business are run. By saying something is the gold standard does not necessarily say it is the best. Far from it in my experience. It usually means there has been a reworking of the way things are done, a glossy brochure printed at enormous costs then the whole thing sits in a drawer and is ignored!

8) I do not believe that at Day One anyone could effective close down every championship and make it reapply. You have made the decision that one championship brings in so many new license holders it can carry on unaffected. But who is to say that they are running at their most efficient? For everyone you get right there will be three you get wrong! What you have to do is issue franchises and make the championship organisers submit proper business cases with proper financial packages and then hold them to it. If they fail to make their targets SHUT THEM DOWN even if it is mid season! One failing championship is one too many.

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Old 14 Dec 2005, 10:03 (Ref:1483725)   #12
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I feel a brick wall with a target painted on it, is called for.

You may choose to bash your head in the bullseye for as long as you see fit.

The issue is that the "sport" if you can call it that, is still being run as a sport, when in fact, on a circuit, it is an entertainment, and should be seen as that. I cannot comment on rallying as I have no experience in this area, however I agree with your comments regarding the costs levied on small club rallies compared to WRC or national events.

Until the MSA, the circuits, and the clubs, all wake up and realise that this sport of ours is in competition with that dratted invention "footing the ball" for viewers, and does something about it, we are, in the words of Private Fraser, Dooooooomed!

Sam, may you continue your "crusade", more power to your elbow as they say in the blazer wearing circles!! (though there is where much of the problem is)

Rob.
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Old 14 Dec 2005, 11:05 (Ref:1483775)   #13
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Gold standard - not actually a suggestion I came up with but one I support, it should cost but no too much to prevent the smallest firms applying.

Steve

you open with exactly what I'm trying to do - give the specialist cttes more power and influence and leave the council as a top layer to finally just ok everything unless its totally daft when they could veto it after discussion and open debate. Cut the red tape. The specialist cttes would be able to create and rework thier own regs as required but of course some elements would be standardised

1) I'm not sure either but perhaps there would be limited volunteers who fit the bill so it might not be so difficult - I said earlier I'm not sure how to implement this

4) hopefully the selection process and rules should keep the politics out after all thats the point of them

5) could be - too generous perhaps...

6) well isn't that the problem? The MSA need to take control of thier house, they should be able to cull or amalgamate a series whatever the club say. So only good grids are permitted.

7) this is sticking point with a few people - it really is not a cost to be passed on to the competitors and is meant to benefit them.

8) quite like that franchise idea though it could put some people & clubs off. The example I used is the Uniroyal Fun Cup - whilst it has relativley small grid - 14 to 20 each car has 3 - 5 drivers, many being rookies so it would have a very strong case. Other series like 750MC stock hatch would take two seconds to approve - loadsa cars multiple grids.
Perhaps not make everything financial based though, for example some series like SCV8 could appear to have a very sound finace package but never get off the ground - after a lot of wasted time and money.
Of course these decisions are up to the cttee.
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Old 14 Dec 2005, 12:21 (Ref:1483829)   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racing59
The issue is that the "sport" if you can call it that, is still being run as a sport, when in fact, on a circuit, it is an entertainment, and should be seen as that. I cannot comment on rallying as I have no experience in this area, however I agree with your comments regarding the costs levied on small club rallies compared to WRC or national events.

Until the MSA, the circuits, and the clubs, all wake up and realise that this sport of ours is in competition with that dratted invention "footing the ball" for viewers, and does something about it, we are, in the words of Private Fraser, Dooooooomed!
Absolutely. Have finally got round to buying Motorsport this month, and reading John Webb's comments about how he bought the gate at clubbies from 1000 up to 5000. Now I can't remember the last time I saw a clubbie meet with 1000 people there, and most of the crowd are probably there because they know someone actually racing rather than just popping along to watch a good day's "sport".
Every year the CSMA weekend packs out Brands for club races, yet a high profile series such as Britcar struggles to get a few hundred through the gates at the same circuit.

If circuit owners, clubs, the MSA, someone, anyone! got their act together and started to promote motor racing then it could be that all of the manifesto wouldn't be necessary?

Maybe i'm just being naive.....
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Old 14 Dec 2005, 13:08 (Ref:1483853)   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teej
If circuit owners, clubs, the MSA, someone, anyone! got their act together and started to promote motor racing then it could be that all of the manifesto wouldn't be necessary?

Maybe i'm just being naive.....
Very

To them, it would appear that nothing is broken, so why bother fixing it?

Another thing that grates my cheese, since I heard about it many years ago - club circuit racing pays to hire circuits. Fair enough. But the big 'national' championships, like the BTCC and F3 expect the circuit to pay for them. How has this been allowed to happen?!
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Old 14 Dec 2005, 13:38 (Ref:1483887)   #16
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these situations would likely be takled by the restructure I suggest - 'big' series would have to pay thier way and I think you'd see some fall by the wayside.
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Old 14 Dec 2005, 14:28 (Ref:1483940)   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Y
Very

To them, it would appear that nothing is broken, so why bother fixing it?

Another thing that grates my cheese, since I heard about it many years ago - club circuit racing pays to hire circuits. Fair enough. But the big 'national' championships, like the BTCC and F3 expect the circuit to pay for them. How has this been allowed to happen?!
Just think about which circuits the BTCC and F3 currently go to and where they used to go to. Some circuits will not be ripped off and if they all stuck together and told these darling series to take a hike where would the BTCC andf F3 series be?

You also find that at a lot of club meetings 100% of the gate money goes to the Circuit. So the organising club will not spend any money on advertisng their meeting as they will get nothing in return. This may account for the low attendance levels at club meetings. However the more advanced circuits do promontional advertisng in these circumstances. I know of certain meetings where there is no admission charge as it would cost more to have peope on the gate collecting the money than they would take in!

Is it any wonder then that the admission charges levied vary so much! And is it any wonder that overall attendance levels are in decline.
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Old 14 Dec 2005, 14:35 (Ref:1483945)   #18
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I know that, you know that - its bleedin obvious. yet the powers that be are unwilling to change - thats why major change is needed
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Old 14 Dec 2005, 16:31 (Ref:1484025)   #19
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So, now that we've established what's to be done - how is all this going to be implemented, given that the powers-that-be are unwilling to change?
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Old 14 Dec 2005, 16:50 (Ref:1484041)   #20
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that is another story - as I say I look on from my position and am suggesting what I think works. I also want no part of it.
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Old 14 Dec 2005, 19:12 (Ref:1484147)   #21
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Erm!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss_collins
that is another story - as I say I look on from my position and am suggesting what I think works. I also want no part of it.
So let me get this right:

1) you have loads of good ideas to get things moving in the right direction.
2) you go to the trouble of committing them to a document.
3) you post it on a forum and invite comments.
4) you field the comments and in fact agree with some alternate ideas
and then finally
5) you don't want anything to do with it!

All I can say is don't ever say anything ever again against the MSA if you are not willing to stand and fight for what you believe in!

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Old 15 Dec 2005, 02:40 (Ref:1484396)   #22
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I think what Sam means is that he is willing to stand up and fight...but he feels he will have a vested interest if he was to become involve in a new organisation.
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Old 15 Dec 2005, 08:49 (Ref:1484516)   #23
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I agree Chezza but also see Steves point of view, just maybe sam should not be quite so defensive because so what if he is trying to change things and if prepared to take up the cudgel, just go for it I am sure a lot of people will back him and these things need someone to take the helm or they dont happen.

I know that the RAC and MSA have split but years ago my mate was invited down the the RAC club in Pall Mall when they were together and he reconed the downright oppulence of the place had to seen to be believed and wondered at the time where all the money for this was coming from.

I personally have not been over happy for years with some ways the way the MSA is seen to conduct business, the transponder issue is just one that makes them be seen in a bad light although in fairness to them in many ways I feel they do a sound job but at a price. Some of Sam's suggestions if I am honest go over my head a bit but it is still good to see someone putting some alternative ideas up for discussion at least.

Answer me this someone. If we the majority UK amatuer club racer or lower etchelons professional (i.e not F1 or top level Rally and sportscars etc) were really dispondent with the MSA and they would stubbonly refuse to change is there anything stopping a like minded group of people setting up a rival organisation or is there something in law to curtail this?
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Old 15 Dec 2005, 09:03 (Ref:1484525)   #24
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well. no - but it would be very difficult
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Old 15 Dec 2005, 09:15 (Ref:1484535)   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson
So let me get this right:

1) you have loads of good ideas to get things moving in the right direction.
2) you go to the trouble of committing them to a document.
3) you post it on a forum and invite comments.
4) you field the comments and in fact agree with some alternate ideas
and then finally
5) you don't want anything to do with it!

He must be writing another book soon
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