Group 5 BMW 320's.

[ian beckett]

Can anyone help with information no matter how small or seemingly unimportant about the wonderful BMW 320 E21's which raced in the Deutsche Rennsport Meisterschaft(DRM) from 1977 to 1982. These cars were the M3's of its day and many were produced by a variety of teams, had numerous drivers and ever changing colour schemes which make them very difficult to follow. I am helping to try to identify the providence of a number of well used and travelled cars and any help would be more than welcome. Thanks in advance.

[John Turner]

Ian, threads merged; hope that's O.K, and welcome back to 10-Tenths!

Look forward to seeing the responses here; have a bit of a soft spot for these cars myself!

[skycafe]

There was an artist/industrial designer that created the actual shape of one, it was more 'organic' then the factory cars. Anybody know the name of the artist? I remember seeing a book of his designs years ago, and sure enough the car was in there.


robert

[johnw]

Alex Elliot is your man.
Posts here sometimes, so try a search.

[Jeff Barley]

Hi Ian.. One of these cars briefly passed through my hands a few years ago.. Never really got round tro serious research but I did aquire a number of books, period plastic "kits", photos, resin kits, posters, period magazines etc... If you're in the process of building a collection then let me know if you're interested in this sort of thing.. My collection also includes much the same for the Werks CSL Batmobiles..
Jeff

[ian beckett]

Dear Jeff, I would be extremely interested in anything to do with racing BMW's. Can you let me know some more details? I am trying to unravel the histories of the 320 as I said in the original thread but I also collect scale models,photographs and race reports from that era. I look forward to hearing from you.Cheers Ian.

[Jeff Barley]

Hi ian!.. I hope you don't regret asking that question!.. I have a pretty big collection !!.. Most of its in storage at the moment, but give me a couple of days / the weekend to dig out some stuff.. I'll take some pics and email them to you.. Rather than bore the forum (?) you might be best to email by PM .. BTW, where are you based? jeff

[skycafe]

[QUOTE=Jeff Barley]Rather than bore the forum (?) /QUOTE]


Wouldn't be a bore, these cars were interesting and I would also like to know more. We saw a few here in the States, but I know little about their European history.

robert

[Jeff Barley]

Hi Robert!.. I do have info in my collection covering the US exposure of these cars.. ie Citibank etc etc, plus race programme from the US.. I'll let Ian have first refusal on what might be of interest to him and then let you know in case anything else might be of interest to.. No doubt Ian and you will debating the history of these magnificent cars, but I'll have to bail out of detailed "chats" because of our new arrival !..
Plus I guess we have all suffered from "misinformation" in the past and how critical it is to avoid passing on info that is actually only part factual or is believed to be "the truth".. What I'm trying to say is that I don't want to start reciting "facts" from memory and run the risk of misleading anyone simply because I don't have the time to re-check my facts before I "post them".. However..That said I owned one of the Gp 5 European cars..plus what might have been an ex-Werks CSL.. Plus a werks E30 M3 (One of the Linder Team cars from 1990 DTM)..plus an E36 Supertourer (Swisss series)..plus a ex Gp2 320.. All of which have now been sold, so you can imagine I gathered quite a lot of info on what was a broad collection of BMW's.. Afraid a divorce put paid to that little lot, but boy was it fun!!!

[chunterer]

Just a quickie,

A club racer called Brian Chatfield successfully ran an ex Peterson 320i in uk special saloons for a number of years in the 1980's. I've got a picture of it hanging off the back of a trailor at Donington in '85 sbut unfortunately haven't got a printer/scanner so i can't post it on here for you!

I don't have any contact details for Brian, but the moderators might have a clue? I would imagine he would be a good source of info on these cars, or try the BARC at Thruxton circuit, he might be a member?

[ian beckett]

Dear Chunterer, thanks for the reply. I think I was at that meeting. Brian Chatfield also ran an ex-Zakspeed M3 in club events and I have a snippet of information in my files that he may also have had an ex_Stuck /Schnitzer 320 at some point in time. Does anyone have a contact for Brian? Anybody know anything about this or the whereabouts of any 320 group 5 cars in the UK? I am a little surprised at how few responses I have had so far. Is there really so little interest out there? Thanks Ian.

[ian beckett]

Dear All, in my haste/keyboard incompetence, I said that Brian Chatfield's M3 was ex-Zakspeed. It was actually ex-Alpina, one of the vivid green cars raced in the DTM in 1987. It is important to correct errors on these forums because comments can soon become fact! Bye..Ian.

[Eddy V]

Ian, I don't think it is a lack of intrest. As I work in Germany, it seems even the Germans don't know where all those 320s are.
Most of the "big ones" are probably tucked away in some garages over here.
Two or three group 5's occasionally appear at smaller races, but who the original drivers were I don't know. (repainted)

[John Turner]

You're right Eddy V; it's definitely not lack of interest; just lack of knowledge. Also, of course, some of the historic threads tend to have a slower response rate than say (for obvious reasons) the F1 threads.

Ian, don't lose heart; we may still tease some more info. out on this; it might just be slow burner. In the meantime, if you can post any new information on here as it comes to light, it may trigger other memories and responses.

[skycafe]

With regard to lack of knowledge: I think the first appearance in States was Watkins Glen six hours, with Peterson and Villeneuve, and then a year later the McLaren BMW, the CitiBank car, appeared in IMSA, first with the atmo engine, and soon followed by the Turbo, which McLaren and Busby raced. Was the McLaren connection only in the States, and I believe McLaren developed the Turbo engine? On the Europe cars that may have been Turbo, was that the same engine, or was it developed independently of the McLaren USA version?


robert

[Carlos Guerra]

The first appearance of a 320 turbo in US racing was at Road Atlanta, April 1977, 3rd round of the IMSA series. Hobbs finished 4th o/a in the main race. Its blown 2-litre engine was developed by McLaren Engines in the USA.
Another 2-litre 320 turbo was seen at Brands Hatch and this was built by BMW Motorsport in Munich.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Carlos Guerra

The first appearance of a 320 turbo in US racing was at Road Atlanta, April 1977, 3rd round of the IMSA series. Hobbs finished 4th o/a in the main race. Its blown 2-litre engine was developed by McLaren Engines in the USA.
Another 2-litre 320 turbo was seen at Brands Hatch and this was built by BMW Motorsport in Munich.

Thought 2 x 320 turbos came to Australia for the Frank Gardner/Alan Grice factory backed team - am I right? Ex Hobbs rings a bell.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Carlos Guerra

The first appearance of a 320 turbo in US racing was at Road Atlanta, April 1977, 3rd round of the IMSA series. Hobbs finished 4th o/a in the main race. Its blown 2-litre engine was developed by McLaren Engines in the USA.
Another 2-litre 320 turbo was seen at Brands Hatch and this was built by BMW Motorsport in Munich.

Hmmmmm...'not positive, but I attended the 24 heures of Daytona (first race of the IMSA season) in '77 and I seem to recollect Hobbs starting a 320it..didna finish tho'...


Ahh-ha! T'is so (Hobbs, Posey, and Peterson; 40th)... http://www.wspr-racing.com/wspr/resu...msa1977.html#1

[tzei]

Hi!

I've done some digging aroud the subject also: there were 2 Gr5 cars in Finland in late 80's and they were sold to UK. One was works junior team car with 2.0 16v n/a engine and the other was a Schnitser 1.4 8v tbo (later upgrated to 2l tbo). The latter car was for sale about a year ago in UK.

Does this help anyone anyway?

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by tzei

Hi!

I've done some digging aroud the subject also: there were 2 Gr5 cars in Finland in late 80's and they were sold to UK. One was works junior team car with 2.0 16v n/a engine and the other was a Schnitser 1.4 8v tbo (later upgrated to 2l tbo). The latter car was for sale about a year ago in UK.

Does this help anyone anyway?

Did Brian Chatfield get one of these over here (UK) ??

[Don Vito]

A very old topic but still.... Actually there was three group5 320s in Finland.
That BMW Motorsport jr.team car (driven 1st by Tuisku Urpiala) is/was said to be ex-Ronnie Pettersson and was finally sold to some collector or such in UK along with the 3rd car. That one came from Sweden without technics and was paired with Volvo B23 in here. As said, it went also to UK
The Schnizer Turbo (driven here by Nicke Wiik) is somewhat questionable, but at some point it was rebuild to original shape by MAT (Mäkelä Auto Tuning) and as far as I have been told, then sold to USA. Maybe to same address as ex-Bächi Sauber BMW M1 (original !!). The buyers are very much bussiness secrets and untill the owner comes to publicity himself, it will remain more or less mystery what actually happened to those cars.

[Alex E]

Hi Don,
I can confirm that all 3 of the Gp 5 320`s came to England. For your info see below;

1/ The ex Schnitzer 320 turbo car you describe (chassis # I have somewhere...) was bought by someone here in England who then sold it to me & I then sold it to Steve Elliott (no relation to me...) who sold it via auction to a dealer in France. My investigations showed that it was a real car that Schnitzer built in late 1976 (must be the first one they built...) & they used through a period of a few years on & off before selling it to Albrecht Jrebs. He had Warsteiner as sponsor in 1979 or 80 (?) It still had the Wagenpass but I don`t know how accurate it was.

2/ The `ex BMW Junior Team` 320 chassis # E21 R1 22 actually wasn`t. Although it was built in early `77 there was no trace of BMW actually using the car in that season. It is possible it was loaned to another team, HAT, Faltz, etc....but it was then sold to BMW Sweden who raced the car in the World Championship in `78. The car is still here with me waiting for restoration.

3/ The last 320 was a mystery to me . I bought the car from John Westman,
When I got the car it had an old Schnitzer 16 valve engine from a 2002 rally car. I assume this was the car that had the Volvo engine ? I found pictures of the car racing at Spa when Kenneth Liem & Christer Simonsen owned it & it had a Schnitzer engine back then, 1982 I think. Eventually I found that it was once painted gold & also found that it was built by GS Tuning. This led me to Jorg Obermoser who confirmed that GS Tuning built his Warsteiner 320 in 1977. So I am thinking that it must be that car. It is still sitting here waiting for some attention !

i hope that solves some mysteries.

Regards Alex.

[Don Vito]

Very big thankyou...
May I ask if you could provide me some photos of those cars (2 and 3) for my net project (www.geocities.com/supersaloon2000).

Did the car number 2 also came from Westman ?

[kurtiejjj]

I love the DRM. I always seem to like the warsteiner sponsored cars. what is ironic though is that Jörg Obermoser was known as the 'fanta-king' and that he apparently didn't like beer at all. You got to admire the fact that he was sponsored by warsteiner for most of his car, including his TOJ sports cars. The Warsteiner brewery was right on his companys doorstep.

I have been on a few german forum but no-one seems to know what happened to all the dozens of group 5 cars. Only other 320 is the fruit of the loom car, which is in germany in a private collection, it will probaply never be raced again.

[stuart05]

I saw Brian race the car at Thruxton in 1988 (?) in a BTCC supporting Special Saloons race. The car was plain white that day.