Safety car shambles

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

I suggest a couple of fairly simple suggestions to fix to some of the safety car issues that might negate the need to speed limit cars during a safety car period.


Firstly; Close pit lane during safety car periods; this does two things, it gets rid of the chase to catch up, and it doesn’t disadvantage the bloke who just passes pit entry when the boards & flags come out.

Secondly, get rid of Schenken:







.

the problem with your first point is it causes all drivers to come in on lap X (whenever the pitlane becomes open) which really destroys any strategy gain that is trying to be achieved by having the pit stop, because the risk of a SC hurts too much if you miss out. Ie it benefits those who pit before the safety car comes out and punishes those that dont,

Also in the case on the weekend, some cars pitted as soon as the incident happened because they were in the lucky spot, others couldnt because they were in an unlucky spot and would have missed out because under your scenario the pits would have been closed, thats hardly seems fair.

agree with your 2nd point, another safety car stuff up, they happen to often

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by peckstar

the problem with your first point is it causes all drivers to come in on lap X (whenever the pitlane becomes open) which really destroys any strategy gain that is trying to be achieved by having the pit stop, because the risk of a SC hurts too much if you miss out. Ie it benefits those who pit before the safety car comes out and punishes those that dont,

Also in the case on the weekend, some cars pitted as soon as the incident happened because they were in the lucky spot, others couldnt because they were in an unlucky spot and would have missed out because under your scenario the pits would have been closed, thats hardly seems fair.

agree with your 2nd point, another safety car stuff up, they happen to often

Peck, with Schenken gone, maybe the contrived racing, with CPS' will dissapear too, and then we wont have to worry about teams being disadvantaged.

As to things not being fair, well sadly life isn't.

[peckstar]

at the moment its fair, just increases the risk for circuit workers.

I dont think the CPS is Tims fault, i would think that is V8Sa fault, well actually it was because of the cost of the new fuel tanks, they were meant to be in this year meaning no CPS

I would think your theory is correct for shorter races though, eg support catagories without pit stops

and maybe you are right for longer races outside the pit window

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by peckstar

at the moment its fair, just increases the risk for circuit workers.

I dont think the CPS is Tims fault, i would think that is V8Sa fault, well actually it was because of the cost of the new fuel tanks, they were meant to be in this year meaning no CPS

I would think your theory is correct for shorter races though, eg support catagories without pit stops

and maybe you are right for longer races outside the pit window

Peck, you live in melbourne don't you ?

Are you suffering heatstroke, I know it's 35 outside right now......

That is possibly the first time you have ever agreed with me, i think I need to change my mind, if only to rectify the balance.

Seriously, I'm liking this thread (even apart from having people agree with me )

We are seeing some decent debate about a serious V8 Supercar issue.

[STEALTHY]

My point wasn't really meant to be included with other rules, like closing pit lane. Mandated speed under SC should be a given really. Seen some old lakeside vid's that were really shocking, wondering how no-one was injured after a car screaming past fire marshals, literally a foot away from them, doing warp speed.


If its a mandated speed, sure, some people will be disadvantaged, but thats racing. Safety should be number one, not 1: Entertainment, 2: Profit, 3: Safety

[peckstar]

its only 34 here and ive been in the pool.

is the SC a bigger issue than just V8SA? i say this because both you have PVDA have referred to incidents in other classes.

in which case its now a CAMS issue and not just a V8SA issue, but maybe V8SA can drive some changes with what happened on the weekend. o

if we are agreeing then maybe your original opinion is wrong

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

My point wasn't really meant to be included with other rules, like closing pit lane. Mandated speed under SC should be a given really. Seen some old lakeside vid's that were really shocking, wondering how no-one was injured after a car screaming past fire marshals, literally a foot away from them, doing warp speed.


If its a mandated speed, sure, some people will be disadvantaged, but thats racing. Safety should be number one, not 1: Entertainment, 2: Profit, 3: Safety

its funny that you left out racing, surely that should fit in there somewhere.

We could have longer safety car sessions thus allowing the cars to complete their pit requirement (without as disadvantage) then once that has been completed then bring the cars under the Sc control and then close the pits and enforce a set speed on anyone who has to pit, meaning they start part of a lap down (its just another form of limiter like a pit lane limiter)

Alternatly at point X we throw a control causing all cars to slow down to a set speed and reduce the need for SC altogether and it *******ises the race less

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

The two drivers were appropriately punished, and the world still continues to turn to this very day.

Penance was served by having to spend time on a flag point for a few races prior to being allowed back out on the track for their next race from memory.


The occupants in the SC cant easily see what is being them so it's not easy to pick the lead car.

That said, the minute the lead car entered the pit lane the very next car to cross the control line either on track or pit exit becomes the pack leader. May not be the actaul race leader but the lead car on track becomes the next available car to catch the SC in this situation.

It should never have been told to completely stop on the race track......

Can someone tell me what the SC was deployed to cover and exactly where on the track the problem was please??

As for helmets and roll cages?? what for?? The SC spends most of it's time at 80km/h or less as should the race cars on the track anywhere near it.

The MotoGP & F1 Safety Cars operate completely differently to our Safety Cars here and the drivers seem to treat them as a Race Car rather than a Safety Car.

[peckstar]

as for helmets and roll cages, well you have already quoted a scenario, as has cranker. on the weekend again we saw a high speed incident. thats why they should be wearing them. at least helmets and race suits (do they wera them now, i always assumed they did)

what you described used to be the way they did it with a safety car, but now they tend to pick up the leader, although it can depend on the purpose of the SC

the incident happened at honda corner and was a long way of the track in what skaife describes as "i have never seen a car go in there before" but still worthy of a Safety car with 20 laps to go. the incident with the SC happened at pit exit, just over the hump, on the entry to turn one there is footage on that link in post 46.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by peckstar

is the SC a bigger issue than just V8SA? i say this because both you have PVDA have referred to incidents in other classes.

in which case its now a CAMS issue and not just a V8SA issue, but maybe V8SA can drive some changes with what happened on the weekend.

Yes but if VE$A wants CAMS rolls over and VE$A gets. All of motorsport is suffering because a certain person has decided that all of CAMS motorsport should follow the FIA (as in F1) flag & Safety Car rules.

Originally Posted by peckstar

the incident happened at honda corner and was a long way of the track in what skaife describes as "i have never seen a car go in there before" but still worthy of a Safety car with 20 laps to go. the incident with the SC happened at pit exit, just over the hump, on the entry to turn one there is footage on that link in post 46.

Mate I know were the SC incident was, I've probably been to PI more than you have over the years. Just because Skaife says he's never seen a car go there before just means he doesn't go out very often as there is more racing at PI than the V8's & Bike GP's

The reason I asked where the incident that brought out the SC was so I could decide for myself if the SC should've stopped or rolled along towards Turn 1. If the incident was at 1 or perhaps 2 then "maybe" I'd have let the SC prop but for something around at 4.............

[Malfunction Junction]

1. Fire Suits, Helmets, Hans/Leatt devices for SC crew. Now.

2. SC speed limiter in race cars, driver activated. Drivers have set time limit to activate their limiter, which must remain active while SC lights are in use. Maximum speed 160km/h (random number used for demonstration purposes)

3. SC minimum speed - 80km/h (random number used for demonstration purposes). It's on and circulating or it's off. Get it on track and let the race cars catch up.

None of these things are rocket science, impossible to achieve, or even difficult. None of them will affect the purpose or trigger points for a SC, but will significantly reduce the problems outlined by PVDA and others with actual experience in white.

[Trevor]

if the leader is in the pits isn't the safety car meant to pick up the next leader, this was a disgrace.

[peckstar]

yes they are, but the next leader didnt get around to Jamie got out of the pits,

apparantly it was not told to "scramble" and so it waited for the call before it moved

[ForumNick]

Yes it 'should', but The Leader exited the pits before the 'next' leader reached the SC (parked @ pit exit)

[Uncle Cranker]

Sorry to re-quote myself....

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

The two drivers were appropriately punished, and the world still continues to turn to this very day.

Originally Posted by PVDA

Penance was served by having to spend time on a flag point for a few races prior to being allowed back out on the track for their next race from memory.

Paul, that was only part of the penance, the C of C summond me to Race Control & told me of the Stewards & Series Director's decision as to an appropriate punishment.

He also told me I was to chauffeur the two drivers out to their respective flag points, and very very specifically told me not to say very much to them about the incident, as they has been appropriately admonished.

Not in my opinion......

I gave these two the spray of their life on the journey out, and left them both in no doubt what a 6' 4"man who weighs around 130 KG would do if they repeated their c0ck-up.

Needless to say,they raced very cleanly all day, one of them won the day, and the three of us shared a beer and a joke at day's end, and all was forgiven.

CAMS take that as a lesson in summary justice.

[Crash Test]

Doesn't it all bring into question the use of that particular pit lane exit- a nice long warm up lane that goes a lot further down to turn one that can be used...

[peckstar]

you mean one that would see drivers not scream from one side of the track to the other in the hope of making a poitions, even though there speed is slower.

I like it, i have seen this happen at a number of tracks like PI and Darwin, it seems really dangerous

[Bevan-L]

This was all Fiore's fault!!!

[1200Datto27]

Has there been any explanation of why Fiore ended up where he did?

[rdmdog]

I have a few points here, Firstly, assuming Ms Anderson is being paid, then this is an OH&S Issue and should be reported as such. Imagine what would happen to an RTA (insert individual State Road Authority) worker who was working on a highway without the flashing lights, signage, reflective vest etc!!

Also, there is no reason that the occupants of the "Safety Car" should not be properly protected with at the minimum, Helmet & Racesuit, no reason it shouldn't have a cage either.

Forget the replay, rewind your Beta Tape to the live incident and listen to what Schenken says. Assuming this audio was not time adjusted, he should stand down NOW, {if someone who is smarter than me & that's most of you could upload it & put a link in that would be good} no way can he claim that he does not know where the SC was as an excuse, or what it was doing, if he says that, that is another reason he should stand down.

Why would the Safety car need to wait for the leader? SC leaves pit lane and drives at 60 KPH until a car appears in it's mirror to control the safety on the track. If the first car is not the suitable one, then let it past at a suitable place. If the situation does not require any more than a local yellow/s, why use the SC?

Malfunction has a good point too with the speed limiter, why not!

Is it really that hard?

Most importantly, V8SA, STOP CALLING IT A SAFETY CAR UNTIL YOU START USING IT AS A SAFETY CAR!

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by rdmdog

Why would the Safety car need to wait for the leader? SC leaves pit lane and drives at 60 KPH until a car appears in it's mirror to control the safety on the track. If the first car is not the suitable one, then let it past at a suitable place. If the situation does not require any more than a local yellow/s, why use the SC?

Most importantly, V8SA, STOP CALLING IT A SAFETY CAR UNTIL YOU START USING IT AS A SAFETY CAR!

Exactly my points as well rdmdog.

The safety car is there to control the field, to make the track safe for workers on the track or for drivers/car in an akward position.

This was a bull**** decision and Schenken should hang his head in shame, he barges into race control 30 minutes before a V8 race and assumes the position of control, everyone has seen you do it Tim. The Clerk of Course is the person in charge, not the bloody Race Director, you should be there as an observer only.

The safety car should have picked up the very first car to make the track safe, these bloody drivers need to be told 100km/h flat out while the track is unsafe, I have been out there like Uncle Cranker and PVDA and have these 'drivers' come at you flat out.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Crash Test

Doesn't it all bring into question the use of that particular pit lane exit- a nice long warm up lane that goes a lot further down to turn one that can be used...

No, would put a car which has to go around T1 slower than race traffic and onto race line on the exit, plus imagine if someone was going around T1 exiting the pits and McConville did his trick from the 500

Originally Posted by rdmdog

assuming Ms Anderson is being paid

Nope, self funded save for the VE$A uniform I believe.

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

The safety car should have picked up the very first car to make the track safe

Trev & others, the first car to catch the SC after it left the Pit Lane was in fact the leader of the race who just happened to catch it by having a Pit Stop.


The whole issue here is an error, or errors, were made. We are all human, even Uncle Cranker & Big Trev, and these things will happen from time to time.

The one thing that separates humans from most other animals on this planet is that we try to learn from mistakes so I have no doubt there will be several discussions in Dandy Rd Malvern in the coming days and phone calls to VE$A HQ in Brisvegas and a 40 page procedural document will be produced to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I've already stated that the SC should be under the control of the CoC via the normal track radio system, after all this seems to work at most tracks for the other 362 days per year so why not for the V8's.

[Southern Man]

There is an old saying about the man who when he found himself up to his neck in Alligators and momentarily forgetting that he was only in the swamp to dig a drainage ditch.
Race Control can be very very busy and cars are traveling at high speed. When you have two or more situations happening at once there will be a delay in responding to one of them.

IMO the greatest cause of Safety Car problems is that we try to pick up the leader first time up. Now this is great if that is the way the field is spaced and it is easy to do but the first rule is get the field under control then worry about getting the running order right before withdrawing the Safety Car.

The other question that no one has asked is why to they have to pick up the leader why not just stabilise the field behind the 1st car the SC comes out in front of and withdraw it when the issue that has casued its deployment has been resolved and let peole go racing. Sure it might advantage or dissadvantage some but this might just cause them to take notice of the yellow flag situation and drive appropriately then if they did the Safety Car would not be required to interfere with the race.

[Average Punter]

I think Todd Kelly deserves a pat on the back in all of this too.

He had a mirror full of Courtney's machine heading straight for his cloaca at warp speed and moved across to the right to leave some room.

Without Todd's move, I don't think Courtney would have stopped...

THAT would have been ugly.

[I16]

OK - a problem is reported to C of C and it is serious!
Full yellow comes on then waved yellow and SC boards are shown at all points.
SC is then deployed with flashing yellows and slots in safely under the direct control of C of C to neutralise the race.
If they manage to pick up the leader then so be it - if not the international best practice is to have an electronic green light displayed on the SC advising competitors that they may pass the SC and move through and on to the back of the queue.
When coming up to the incident the SC may turn out the green to lower the speed through the incident area.
It is not really rocket stuff but my first call was in 1979 and the last was 2008I was ready all last weekend [not PI] but thankfully did not get a call!
It is important that the deployment of SC is practiced and everyone should know what is going down.
Best practice is an experienced C of C and a SC driver that he - she has had a chat to before practice starts.