[Team] Red Bull,STR,Ferrari and Sauber leave FOTA

[Marbot]

Is this the beginning of the end for FOTA?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96614

[chillibowl]

the article is not saying if they are leaving because they want to spend more money or less money.

it seems to use quotes to make it out like everyone else is being unreasonable although i find it unreasonable to think that Ferrari and Red Bull want to spend less money.

[Marbot]

Ferrari say that they have left FOTA because:

"Ferrari will continue to work with the other teams to make the current RRA, Resource Restriction Agreement, aimed at controlling costs, more effective and efficient, modifying it to make it more stringent in key areas such as aerodynamics, to rebalance some aspects such as testing and to expand it to areas currently not covered such as engines.

Formula 1, like the rest of the world in fact, is currently going through a delicate period. Ferrari wants to work with all parties for the future of a sport that expresses the highest level of motor sport technology. We must return to a situation where Formula 1 is really a test bed for advanced technological research, the results of which can be transferred to Granturismo cars. In addition, we must not forget that this sport must become more user friendly and more accessible to the general public and furthermore, it cannot be the only professional sport where it is practically impossible to do any training: the number of days of testing must be increased so that the drivers, especially the young ones who lack experience and the teams, can be adequately prepared, as well as providing more opportunities for them to come into contact with spectators and sponsors."


Make of that what you will.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Ferrari say that they have left FOTA because:

"Ferrari will continue to work with the other teams to make the current RRA, Resource Restriction Agreement, aimed at controlling costs, more effective and efficient, modifying it to make it more stringent in key areas such as aerodynamics, to rebalance some aspects such as testing and to expand it to areas currently not covered such as engines.

Formula 1, like the rest of the world in fact, is currently going through a delicate period. Ferrari wants to work with all parties for the future of a sport that expresses the highest level of motor sport technology. We must return to a situation where Formula 1 is really a test bed for advanced technological research, the results of which can be transferred to Granturismo cars. In addition, we must not forget that this sport must become more user friendly and more accessible to the general public and furthermore, it cannot be the only professional sport where it is practically impossible to do any training: the number of days of testing must be increased so that the drivers, especially the young ones who lack experience and the teams, can be adequately prepared, as well as providing more opportunities for them to come into contact with spectators and sponsors."


Make of that what you will.

They obviously want Kubica to be able to do unlimited testing in a current specification car and get fully up to speed pronto so he can replace Massa!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Ferrari say that they have left FOTA because:

"Ferrari will .................... aimed at controlling costs,

the number of days of testing must be increased

So on the one hand they want to save money, yet on the other spend more money on testing?

I can't help but feel that if the ban on testing was lifted tomorrow, the thought of saving money would be forgotten and both of Ferrari's test tracks would be used 7 days a week until the start of the 2012 season.

[Bononi]

What a terrible day.

[Paradise City]

Testing should be increased. Ferrari with their slate of test tracks are unfit to drive that process.

[Marbot]

The testing regulations are in the sporting regulations now, as opposed to being just a gentlemen's agreement when Ferrari last broke ranks with regard to testing. So, no one is going to be doing unlimited testing any time soon. But that's not to say that Ferrari won't take their ball home again if things don't change.

And it's no surprise that Red Bull pulled out shortly after Ferrari did, because they don't want anything to do with limited aero development in the way that Ferrari do.

Any thoughts that FOTA was set up for the good of the fans has now been blown clean out of the water.

[Lrawlings]

The decision of two of the most powerful teams in F1, Ferrari and Red Bull, to quit the Formula One Teams Association over the ‘stalemate’ in the organisation, leaves questions about whether the institution will survive.

And if it does not, will F1 again descend into a spending arms race between a few wealthy teams?

FOTA was formed in September 2008 to represent the interests of the F1 teams in dealings with the FIA and Bernie Ecclestone’s organisation.

It was designed to prevent a repeat of what happened in 2005 when Ferrari broke ranks with the other manufacturers who were trying to stand up to FIA and Ecclestone, and did a deal on its own worth €100 million to sign the Concorde Agreement.

Ferrari president Montezemolo, who cut that deal, was ironically one of the key founders of the FOTA movement. There have been rumours that Ferrari might have done a similar deal here but these were denied by a Ferrari source.

It is interesting that the two teams have left at the same time, although Ferrari claims it was on the move first.

Montezemolo has recently expressed concern about the direction the sport is headed in and the company blamed a ‘stalemate’ within FOTA as its reason for leaving. Ferrari feels FOTA has run its course and a new impulse is needed.

There is a lack of trust within FOTA which has spurred this decision, but it’s important to remember that the RRA is a legally binding agreement which runs to 2017, so it is not as if Ferrari and Red Bull will be able to spend £100 million a year more. Meanwhile the testing agreement also involves the FIA, so this won’t change overnight.

However with a new Concorde Agreement due to to be discussed and come into force in 2013, the separation of Ferrari in particular at this stage will weaken the teams’ negotiating position.

It will greatly disappoint the other teams, particularly Mercedes and McLaren, and will lead to calls of “I told you so” from sceptics within and without F1, who thought that an alliance of teams was a waste of time.

FOTA has achieved some useful things in its time, mostly on the cost savings side; like the original Resource Restriction Agreement in 2008, the cutting back of testing, reduction in wind tunnel time, the rationalisation of engine prices to keep small teams in the game.

But that is now at risk from the split, with Red Bull and Ferrari unhappy about the next stage of the RRA, which the teams are finding it hard to agree on.

Both Ferrari boss Stefano Domenicali and Red Bull Racing boss Christian Horner asked recently if FOTA could not agree a new RRA, what was the point of having the organisation? That said, Ferrari retains close links with Sauber, which is still part of FOTA and Toro Rosso is part of the Red Bull empire.

Autosport broke the story today and got a confirmation from a FOTA spokesman, “FOTA confirms it has received the resignation of two teams. Whilst considering its next steps, FOTA will continue to work on behalf of its members to achieve the aims of the organisation.”

The row has been brewing for some time but the split comes just two months into the tenure as FOTA secretary general of Oliver Weingarten, who worked previously as a lawyer in the English Premier League. He is in the process of learning the characters involved and the complex dynamics of the F1 paddock.

There have been suggestions that the top four teams, including Red Bull and Ferrari, were going to meet independently to see if they could agree a framework outside FOTA for a way forward on RRA.

Most teams don’t have a large enough budget to be affected by the RRA, but it does place a ceiling above the big teams and stops them from engaging in a spending arms race which would skew the competitive balance of the sport and ultimately could lead to the failure of several medium and small teams who would be unable to compete.

It may be that Ferrari and Red Bull’s move will focus minds and in the two month notice period they must serve, it will force agreement which saves the organisation.

But if FOTA splits, it would be a personal crisis for FOTA chairman Martin Whitmarsh, who has invested three years in the development of FOTA because he believed it was for the greater good.

“F1 has survived economic storm that began in 2008 better than we might have and I think that there are a number of teams that wouldn’t be around without that the spirit of co-operation we’ve had in many areas of FOTA,” he told me in an interview last month at McLaren’s factory.

“We have limited the arms race on wind tunnels by limiting the scale to 60%. Some teams were having to spend £50 million for a full scale tunnel to be competitive. We’ve limited the hours; it was getting to three shifts 24/7 and now our tunnel runs for half of that time. We had to also reduce the CFD time. We are spending less than half the money we used to externally and we’ve been through a painful redundancy process. None of these measures are disputed now and we may well use some of those mechanisms to further control costs.

“The teams have always fought each other on the track and off the track and not always recognised that we’ve got a lot of common interests in our core business.

“Do we have lots of challenges? Yes. Will we do everything we want to? No.

“I think FOTA has achieved more in its three years than the teams did in the previous sixty.

“We wouldn’t be very smart if we don’t stay together.”

That could all be in jeopardy now.


From Internet news site. Regards lee

[jab]

But that's the whole point, isn't it? FOTA never was set up for the good of the fans. It was set up for the good of the teams. Any notions that it was "for" the fans was only to get them onside in their fight against the F1 establishment

I've never trusted FOTA. They were a front for the teams' attempts to try and make more money, for one by trying and wrestle the commercial rights from Bernie or at least earn a greater share of the revenue. And the fact that it will end with in-fighting and a split is no surprise - they had to make di Montezemolo chairman to begin with to help keep Ferrari in the organisation, something they had to do because Ferrari are more powerful than all the other teams put together

[Paradise City]

FOTA collapsing is as inevitable as the dusk with a slight querie as to 'when'. Well, here it is.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jab

But that's the whole point, isn't it? FOTA never was set up for the good of the fans.

Which was my point. FOTA was thought by some to be a way for F1 to communicate with the fans more easily. It was not, never has been, never will be, despite what some might think. The simple fact that both Red Bull and Ferrari think that FOTA has now served its purpose, proves that.

And when one FOTA deserter says this:

"Ferrari will continue to work with the other teams to make the current RRA, Resource Restriction Agreement, aimed at controlling costs, more effective and efficient, modifying it to make it more stringent in key areas such as aerodynamics, to rebalance some aspects such as testing and to expand it to areas currently not covered such as engines,"

We can only expect that Red Bull to not want anything to do with that, so it's no surprise that shortly after Ferrari issued a statement that we get one from Red Bull.

Bernie must be really happy about all of this.

[JeremySmith]

Well we know Red Bull was talking with Bernie, because if you remember Christian Horner said that he did not think about FOTA that much these days..

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Well we know Red Bull was talking with Bernie, because if you remember Christian Horner said that he did not think about FOTA that much these days..

I've removed that part from my post, but yes! That is correct.

Ferrari, on the other hand, are always 'talking' to Bernie.

[JeremySmith]

Timing is everything of course especially when you are cleaning up..

Who needs.......

[gttouring]

i don't see how this is a problem. the team weren't pulling much weight around, just threatening with a breakaway series (what would it be GP1?)the teams self regulated or in a union end up in a similar pecking order. throw FOTA out, what was the aim for it again? because they never seemd to do much help me remember.

[wolfhound]

Bernie is probably laughing all the way to the bank now that FOTA appears to be breaking up. The only thing missing is his old mate max to fix the regs for him.

[henners88]

Can't really see any reason to be alarmed about this to be quite honest. Ferrari and Red Bull have left FOTA, so what?

[Paradise City]

Well, you can overstate the implications of this alright. On paper, an open conflict between the teams means the possibility of endless jabbering about a split, it means an increasing chance of a spending race or at least an open spending race as opposed to hiding the spending race under various accountancy devices.

In any event, FOTA or any similar organisation was never a stable proposition as long as Ferrari got guaranteed preferential treatment.

[Peat]

Red Bull way overspent this year, as did Ferrari (but they have thier own reasons to quit anyway). Mclaren also overspent but they just covered thier ar$es well to the auditers.

This day was always going to come.

[luke g28]

Originally Posted by Peat

Red Bull way overspent this year, as did Ferrari (but they have thier own reasons to quit anyway). Mclaren also overspent but they just covered thier ar$es well to the auditers.

This day was always going to come.

[needs citation]

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by henners88

Ferrari and Red Bull have left FOTA, so what?

How is it then possible to get agreement as to what Formula One teams want if you can't all agree on it?

Ferrari and Red Bull have left FOTA because of issues other than spending. They are still legally bound to the RRA, so that has nothing to do with it. They have left, most likely, because of technical issues. Ones a soft drinks manufacturer and the other makes road cars, so they have different reasons for being in F1.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Marbot

How is it then possible to get agreement as to what Formula One teams want if you can't all agree on it?

acouple of questions.

to what degree does FOTA have power in determining the sporting or technical code?

also i question what it means to be legally bound to the RRA...does failure to comply mean you lose your title or just get fined by FOTA?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

acouple of questions.

to what degree does FOTA have power in determining the sporting or technical code?

Rather than bleat on about myself:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/formul.../article/7020/

Originally Posted by chillibowl

also i question what it means to be legally bound to the RRA...does failure to comply mean you lose your title or just get fined by FOTA?

I can't find anything on that, but it does look like Ferrari and RedBull are still committed to it.

[raymondu999]

From what I gather from several colleagues in the paddock; the RRA is a legal contract that stands true until 2017. It's not tied to FOTA membership; so Red Bull and Ferrari are still bound to the RRA