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View Poll Results: Should Ron Have Signed Tommy Byrne? | |||
Yes | 4 | 16.00% | |
No | 21 | 84.00% | |
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll |
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23 Jan 2018, 14:19 (Ref:3794541) | #1 | ||
Racer
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Should Ron Have Signed Tommy?
Always found it ironic that the squeaky clean, politically correct () James Hunt should have been chosen to spearhead McLaren's title campaign with the blessing of Marlboro's John Hogan, yet 7 years later, under the leadership of Ron, but still with Marlboro, Tommy Byrne was considered too much of a rough diamond.
Should Ron have gone on talent alone, or did he do the right thing? |
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23 Jan 2018, 14:33 (Ref:3794542) | #2 | |
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Who knows, he certainly had the talent, even after his time in F1. I think I remember reading when meeting with Ron, his attitude let him down. Sometimes those things matter and in that case it seemed to. Such a waste of a great talent.
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
23 Jan 2018, 16:53 (Ref:3794569) | #3 | ||
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Martin Brundle summed it up perfectly in the recent BBC documentary.......Tommy quite simply talked himself out of a drive, by running his mouth after he got out of the car after the elusive Silverstone test, I can imagine Ron heard enough and made his mind up on the spot, Ron had been in the sport for 15-20 years up to that point, and he knew who he was looking for, someone clynical and professional to fit the McLaren way of doing things......McLaren was corporate and attracting big sponsors.......Tommy was as rough as they come.......a classic example of having plenty of driving talent, but looking and sounding like a reprobate (in Rons eyes)
James Hunt was quite a well spoken fellow, so he always passed the sniff test Last edited by knighty; 23 Jan 2018 at 16:58. |
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KnighTorque |
23 Jan 2018, 18:17 (Ref:3794585) | #4 | |
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I read an extract from Tommy’s book in which he claimed he said the engine wasn’t quite right or something, but he didn’t say anything derogatory, so that’s his side of the story
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
24 Jan 2018, 06:35 (Ref:3794658) | #5 | |
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This is just a convenient work of fiction.
Burns won the British F3 title in 1982, and was given a McLaren test. 1982 McLaren line-up was Lauda and Watson 1983 McLaren line-up was Lauda and Watson 1984 Lauda and Prost. Where would Burns have fitted in? |
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24 Jan 2018, 11:22 (Ref:3794717) | #6 | ||
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exactly - there was no room for him at McLaren.......
I do buy it that Senna respected his skills a lot and put a few words in for him at several teams, so he did get a season, which is a lot more than most get.....but even then he was too arrogant and thought he knew better than everyone, and rubbed everyone up the wrong way, quite simply he was not a team player, and his people skills were awful.......so he never got another F1 drive.......simple as that. In music terms, Tommy Byrne was the proverbial Brian Harvey from East-17.......great singer, but a terrible attitude and just another portaloo full of it Last edited by knighty; 24 Jan 2018 at 11:30. |
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KnighTorque |
24 Jan 2018, 14:08 (Ref:3794746) | #7 | |||
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Quote:
There was even talk afterwards that during the McLaren test the throttle pedal had been adjusted to not allow 100%, although I don't believe this for a second. For all his faults, on talent alone, I would rather have seen him in a McLaren rather than Watson for 83. |
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24 Jan 2018, 14:51 (Ref:3794750) | #8 | ||
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heres the web article, yes the car was protected on the test day by having the throttle wound back a bit, as it was too valuable to have crashed by a rookie trying to prove a point......iniipendednt stop watched had Tommy 0.5sec quicker than Lauda.
http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/8578.html But for me, its just a test day, I race karts with my son 3 times per month to a professional MSA/FIA level........the track can easily vary 0.5 seconds from day to day, depending on weather and the previous rubber laid down......but overall the point stands, Tommy was brutally fast........but did he spend weeks setting up the car to be so fast in the first place - no he didnt, could he do the test driving side of it and work his way around problems with the engineers, certainly not, thats why he hated the Theodore people. Tommy would have just been another Mansell, nobody in Williams or Mclaren has a good word to say about Mansel as he rubbed everyone up the wrong way with his bluntness and poor people skills........hence the likes of Lauda, senna and Prost hoovered up all the WDC's in the 1980's & early 90's |
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KnighTorque |
24 Jan 2018, 16:45 (Ref:3794764) | #9 | |
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Certainly there seemed to be more to the test than meets the eye. I guess we’ll never know the full story. He seemed to have a bit of that Muhammad Ali in him, believing himself to be the best. Just a shame for his talent it never worked out.
I remember reading something Gary Anderson said, where in the 1984 Monaco F3 support race his car had a gearbox problem, where a gear or two was missing and the team were gonna pull him in after a couple of laps to save the car for the next race, but changed their minds when they saw him scything through the field from mid grid, to finish in the top six. To do that with a couple of gears missing showed he didn’t lack talent and commitment |
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
24 Jan 2018, 17:45 (Ref:3794776) | #10 | ||
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"To do that with a couple of gears missing showed he didn’t lack talent and commitment"
Talent? Agreed. Commitment? 'Not an example of commitment I'm afraid... |
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"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..." jimclark |
24 Jan 2018, 18:53 (Ref:3794794) | #11 | ||
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I think a point worth noting is that the McLaren test was part of the team's obligations to Marlboro (so that they could offer a prize for sponsoring F3). As such, it wasn't a 'shoot out' for a drive or anything of that ilk. A reasonably similar comparison is the McLaren test for the Autosport/BRDC award - whilst a considerable number of drivers have tested, only Coulthard and Button have ever raced for the team (although I appreciate that a few more have been test drivers/reserves).
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24 Jan 2018, 20:18 (Ref:3794813) | #12 | ||||
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Quote:
This from MotorSport regarding that period of Tommy's career. Quote:
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25 Jan 2018, 09:07 (Ref:3794888) | #13 | ||
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His stats don't look too great to me. Spent 7 years in Indy Lights and never won the title. Didn't even win a race the last 2 years, although they were par time. 2 years in F3 with just 1 win. Sounds like most of his "greatness" comes from his own mouth. I haven't read the book though.
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25 Jan 2018, 18:08 (Ref:3795036) | #14 | ||
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I saw him race many times and he was sublime- very much the real deal . Out of the cockpit though , he could not have had a worse enemy than himself .
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31 Jan 2018, 05:26 (Ref:3797059) | #15 | |
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Why can't we see which way people voted?
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28 Jan 2018, 20:24 (Ref:3796472) | #16 | |||
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Quote:
The "legend" was born during his early years in England. RAC and P&O FF1600 titles 1980 (Ayrton the year after) British FF2000 Champion 1981 (Ayrton the year after) Formula Ford Festival winner 1981 (After Ayrton vacated the seat and turned his back on racing after his wife's ultimatum) European FF2000 Champion 1981 (Ayrton the year after) British F3 Champion 1982 (Ayrton the year after) |
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28 Jan 2018, 20:56 (Ref:3796477) | #17 | |
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And he didn’t win just one F3 race either...
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30 Jan 2018, 16:26 (Ref:3796925) | #18 | ||
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Hmmm, neither did Johnny Dumfries, although he didn't have such a stellar CV as Byrne up to that point it must be said!
Perhaps there are parallels between Tommy and Jan Magnussen in terms of their huge talents compared to their character and outlook? |
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"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!" |
31 Jan 2018, 14:18 (Ref:3797163) | #19 | |||
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Quote:
Tommy was the first to tell anyone how good he was, Jan was definitely quieter. Where Tommy caused his own downfall, I firmly believe that JYS, having once held him in such high regard, single handedly ruined Jan’s future as an F1 driver. I read that in 98, Jackie took Jan (and later Jos) to Oulton Park, to show them how they should be doing it, only a mere 25 years since he himself had driven a GP car competitively.. |
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1 Feb 2018, 11:06 (Ref:3797406) | #20 | |||
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Makes you wonder. If he felt they were good enough to drive for him, why the need to patronise them like that? I wonder how he sold it to them??? "Nowww then Jaaan, the aim of the exercise is to drive sooooo precisely and smoooothly that the cup of water on the bonnet of the car doesn't spill" |
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"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!" |
1 Feb 2018, 11:29 (Ref:3797412) | #21 | ||
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I find it ironic that JYS used to do this too, most patronising for the drivers......in the latter years of his F1 driving, the F1 Tyrrel cars that he drove were complete boats with very short suspension wishbones that caused a very "snappy" suspension system, which absolutely required the driver to hack the steering wheel and deal with all sorts of oversteer incidents, not smooth driving at all.
Watch this on-board footage from 1973 and you will see what I mean. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkq8Q26N52g The smoothest driver ever was Jenson Button........I run my 12 year old son to a professional level in MSA karting around the UK, I have employed numerous national championship winning 1:1 driver coaches over a 4 year period to get my son as fast and as smooth as possible.......in the last year we had 16 podiums, 3 wins and won a championship.......I respect JYS, but his talk on driving does grate with me. |
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KnighTorque |
1 Feb 2018, 19:49 (Ref:3797535) | #22 | ||
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Quote:
There is actually much that can be learned and to me you can never learn enough. We have coaches in every other sport and I think only in recent years have people come to understand that drivers need them as well. I think any driver that would consider coaching as patronizing is a complete moron. I'm not a complete JYS fan but I do remember in the earlier seasons around 2005 or so, JYS taking James May around a track in a road car and by the end had shaved 20 seconds off his time. Jan Magnussen was another who might have had a little turn of speed but never had the mental application or desire to be champion. I think he had his chances with McLaren, Stewart and in CART and he just couldn't keep it together. Again another person that would have benefited from a coach. |
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Wolverines! |
28 Jan 2018, 21:50 (Ref:3796492) | #23 | ||
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My interest in motor racing wasn't rekindled until about 1984, so Byrne didn't figure on my radar as such. When I watched the documentary, I was intrigued by the character. He was clearly very very good and had the talent to get to the top, but although I felt sympathy for a man who ought to have made it, I also felt almost angry at the very obvious chip on his shoulder about the likes of Ayrton and the monied Brazilians and the decisions that Tommy made. It certainly seemed as though he missed out really badly on sensible advice and guidance and that he couldn't recognise that his 'booze and birds' lifestyle was actually doing his career considerable harm. I ended up thinking, 'What a waste'.....
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96 days... |
31 Jan 2018, 07:54 (Ref:3797085) | #24 | ||
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I guess it's the way the poll has been set up, we can only see the result.
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96 days... |
31 Jan 2018, 08:53 (Ref:3797106) | #25 | |
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Tommy Byrne came up as a topic on another forum, yes there is life beyond Ten-Tenths, not much I grant you. This is a post I made at the time.
Q. Did DSJ ever write about Tommy Byrne? I just finished Tommy's autobiography last night and found myself wondering that. My reply...... A bit of late night fiction is always good for sleep. DSJ From the German Grand Prix "Jan Lammers had been moved out of the Theodore Team and Tommy Byrne had been brought out of the Formula 3 school to replace him though the reason was a bit obscure............" DSJ had this to say from The Austrian Grand Prix. "Tommy Byrne just scraped onto the grid with the original Theodore TY02, but hardly justified his replacement of Jan Lammers." "By lap 11 Patrese had already caught and lapped Tommy Byrne, which gives some idea of the discrepancy between the fastest and the slowest............" TB barely warranted a mention at either the Swiss or Italian Grand Prix but at Las Vegas DSJ gave an insight to his thoughts on the Irishman. "First reserve was the little Irishman Tommy Byrne in the Theodore, so by Jarier's bad luck he was lucky to start in the race. When Byrne arrived on the Formula One scene at mid-season he was rather confident, not to say cocky, and was quoted as saying that famous names did not interest him, as long as they did not get in his way! When he did actually qualify for a race the only time he saw some of them was when they lapped him and at Las Vegas he spun off while trying to keep out of the way of some of the famous names that were lapping him!" No further comment needed from DSJ.. I was at a dinner last week sitting with a veteran Autosport journalist, we had witnessed Byrne in F3 during 1982. We both agreed that despite his claims he would not have coped with Martin Brundle let alone Ayrton...........but what would we know? |
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