[Official] Russian Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 10

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

But surely if you’re applying a penalty then they should look at all the evidence before dishing it out. Given we all heard the audio before the race started and The team argued the penalty at the time, the penalty was given several laps into the race so surely they’d have found time to listen to 10 seconds of audio. I find it very bizarre.

It’s not the first time over the last 12 months either, and not just for Lewis. Hate to say it but strange decisions have been made since Charlie’s passing

The radio conversation (if all of it was available to the stewards in that timeframe) was immaterial to the decision. Did the car do a practice start in an incorrect location - yes, did it then do so again - yes. Decision over, penalties applied. Sorry, nothing bizarre about it.

Subsequently, either the radio conversation in full or the team contacting the stewards caused them to adjust the penalties to a fairer outcome. Good call in my view - the licence points made zero difference to the race result & I'd suggest that the driver wouldn't have known about that until after the race - so making the change makes sense, given further info from the team.

In regard to decisions and Charlie's passing, neither Charlie nor Michael have had any part in steward's decisions - other than referring matters or giving evidence and let's face it, there were plenty of weird stewards' decisions in the past and no doubt will be plenty more in the future.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

That’s not what I was getting at. They didn’t need to listen to the team radio to decide if it was a penalty for the race. Who decided to do it is irrelevant for the 5s penalties. However if the driver gets penalty points on their license it is.

Yep - that's where I'm coming from too. IMHO the stewards handled it quite well.

If we were to take the approach that radio calls should be fully listened to before making a decision on a penalty, we could end up with even more bizarre decisions - did the team's call of "get him, push push" cause driver X to drive into driver Y - so now driver X should not get a penalty?

[sizzle]

Am I mistaken in thinking the Stroll/Leclerc coming together was amazingly similar to the Hamilton/Albon one in Austria. With the opposite outcome when reviewed by the stewards.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by sizzle

Am I mistaken in thinking the Stroll/Leclerc coming together was amazingly similar to the Hamilton/Albon one in Austria. With the opposite outcome when reviewed by the stewards.

Perhaps first lap crowded track everyone darting around looking for space is seen as mitigating circumstances over a move with no traffic interfering, making a move for a podium / decent position with only a few laps left.....
To me the first scenario is more a racing incident that the latter.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The radio conversation (if all of it was available to the stewards in that timeframe) was immaterial to the decision. Did the car do a practice start in an incorrect location - yes, did it then do so again - yes. Decision over, penalties applied. Sorry, nothing bizarre about it.

Subsequently, either the radio conversation in full or the team contacting the stewards caused them to adjust the penalties to a fairer outcome. Good call in my view - the licence points made zero difference to the race result & I'd suggest that the driver wouldn't have known about that until after the race - so making the change makes sense, given further info from the team.

In regard to decisions and Charlie's passing, neither Charlie nor Michael have had any part in steward's decisions - other than referring matters or giving evidence and let's face it, there were plenty of weird stewards' decisions in the past and no doubt will be plenty more in the future.

Well it clearly is material otherwise why remove the points after they’ve listened to it? When is the last time you saw part of a penalty being reversed...so I’d say bizarre

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by E.B

Perhaps first lap crowded track everyone darting around looking for space is seen as mitigating circumstances over a move with no traffic interfering, making a move for a podium / decent position with only a few laps left.....
To me the first scenario is more a racing incident that the latter.

Crowded like after a safety car restart in Austria ;-)

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Well it clearly is material otherwise why remove the points after they’ve listened to it? When is the last time you saw part of a penalty being reversed...so I’d say bizarre

Immaterial as the points had no impact on the race, the time penalty (still in place) did.

The team (including the Hamster) made a mistake, copped a penalty, that's it really. If the non-time, non-race impact part of the penalty was later changed, BFD.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Immaterial as the points had no impact on the race, the time penalty (still in place) did.

The team (including the Hamster) made a mistake, copped a penalty, that's it really. If the non-time, non-race impact part of the penalty was later changed, BFD.

Not disputing the penalty, they made a mistake and fell foul which is fair enough, I’m trying to work out the process of applying the punishment without all the evidence....that seems somewhat strange, especially when that evidence is so readily available, and we know the stewards listen to the team radios all the time

[steve_r]

I was only watching the Channel 4 coverage, so there were some laps that got cut from the highlights. So, with that in mind, can someone explain whether or not Hamilton would have won if he did not get the 10 second penalty. Reason I am asking is that he was ahead of Bottas by a smallish margin, but ended up behind Verstappen by more than 10 seconds, and Bottas was much further ahead.

I saw that Hamilton came out behind Vettel, but it looked like he got past quickly, so I am struggling to see where he lost the rest of the time. Or was his tyre strategy / mid race pace not as good as the other two?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I was only watching the Channel 4 coverage, so there were some laps that got cut from the highlights. So, with that in mind, can someone explain whether or not Hamilton would have won if he did not get the 10 second penalty. Reason I am asking is that he was ahead of Bottas by a smallish margin, but ended up behind Verstappen by more than 10 seconds, and Bottas was much further ahead.

I saw that Hamilton came out behind Vettel, but it looked like he got past quickly, so I am struggling to see where he lost the rest of the time. Or was his tyre strategy / mid race pace not as good as the other two?

Il be honest, i dont think he would have won anyway, compromised by strategy on Saturday and had to nurse the tyres longer in the race.

With that said, who knows....Hamilton may have been able to catch up, but once the penalty was dished out, knowing he had to pass a few cars including Max, playing the long game it was probably better to cruise home 3rd rather than risk it.

[S griffin]

Of course it is harsh to have a penalty like that when it didn't really affect the race, but rules are rules. Good win for Bottas, bit closer to Hamilton in the title, but he needs not to rely on bad luck if he wants to keep those hopes alive

Track limits once again rears it's ugly head. Funny how we didn't hear anything about it in Mugello, where they have gravel runoff all round the circuit?

Vettel once again below par. He has to rediscover his mojo at Aston Martin or it's a complete waste of a good seat

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Of course it is harsh to have a penalty like that when it didn't really affect the race, but rules are rules. Good win for Bottas, bit closer to Hamilton in the title, but he needs not to rely on bad luck if he wants to keep those hopes alive

Track limits once again rears it's ugly head. Funny how we didn't hear anything about it in Mugello, where they have gravel runoff all round the circuit?

Vettel once again below par. He has to rediscover his mojo at Aston Martin or it's a complete waste of a good seat

rules being rules, why wasnt Leclerc punished for a similar incident he did exactly the same thing as hamilton, doing a practice start after pit exit and timing line

https://twitter.com/benjhunt/status/1300068608966643712

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

rules being rules, why wasnt Leclerc punished for a similar incident he did exactly the same thing as hamilton, doing a practice start after pit exit and timing line

https://twitter.com/benjhunt/status/1300068608966643712

They knew full well that if they did, there would be no opportunity for inconsistency to be discussed on Ten Tenths. So they were thinking of the needs of our members.... very public-spirited...

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

They knew full well that if they did, there would be no opportunity for inconsistency to be discussed on Ten Tenths. So they were thinking of our membership....

LOL!!!! what makes me laugh even more is Johnny Herbert was the driver steward in Spa who chose not to penalise LeClerc, and yet he was the one saying on Sky that Hamiltons penalty was justified

[Aysedasi]

When you're a commentator, you can say what you like (or believe) as nothing hangs on it....

[TrapezeArtist]

Can we move on to other things please. There's a whole race to discuss, albeit a pretty tedious one.

Turn 2 was altogether a bit of a mess, for which we can jointly blame the track design, the race organisers and some of the drivers.
Carlos Sainz's clobbering of the wall will be appearing on replay for years to come. I like Carlos, but that was driving like a plonker. And slithering back onto the track made it seriously dangerous.
Bottas just managed to stay on the right side of the sausage kerb but Riciardo apparently went just over (personally I thought he was just OK). Both were being squeezed by their team-mate.
Fat John probably gave expression to what most people were feeling about the off-track chicane. To be fair to him, he went off quite late and would have had to double back on himself to follow the appointed route. F1 steering lock wouldn't allow that.

Vettel's qually crash was the sort of thing that could happen to almost anyone when they're trying to push the envelope. But it happened to HIM. AGAIN!

Leclerc and Stroll crashing was just a typical first lap incident. Annoying for Racing Point but not much more. Daddy Stroll must be wondering about his "2021 Dream Team" though.

I really, really want Alex Albon to come good. But supporting him is beginning to feel like supporting Williams.

[Aysedasi]

Decent summary. That's about it I guess. Shall we close the thread....?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Decent summary. That's about it I guess. Shall we close the thread....?

might as well, since we cant discuss race related things in a race thread ;-p

heres an interesting article from The Race

https://the-race.com/formula-1/why-f...enalty-points/

Masi says we expect drivers to do practice start from a specific point, while at the same time contradicting himself by admitting that specific point wasnt in the race directors notes and no marking was on the tarmac to show where that specific point was.

Add to that the lack of penalty for Leclerc doing exactly the same thing and the more and more excuses i hear, the more i think the stewards had a bad day at the office

[S griffin]

It’s seems fashionable to knock the stewards when they make a controversial decision, but there are plenty of questions that deserve to be answered. Like how Leclerc got away with similar and why the FIA weren’t clear on everything to begin with. As I said rules are rules, but it does seem that the officials have quite a bit to answer to

[E.B]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Crowded like after a safety car restart in Austria ;-)

I was more thinking of his unsubtle move in Brazil

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by E.B

I was more thinking of his unsubtle move in Brazil

Il give you that one :-)

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It’s seems fashionable to knock the stewards when they make a controversial decision, but there are plenty of questions that deserve to be answered. Like how Leclerc got away with similar and why the FIA weren’t clear on everything to begin with. As I said rules are rules, but it does seem that the officials have quite a bit to answer to

Having marshalled for years I’m the first person to jump to stewards defence and not criticise but decisions of late, and their reasoning (not just for Hamilton) leave more questions than answers

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Vettel's qually crash was the sort of thing that could happen to almost anyone when they're trying to push the envelope. But it happened to HIM. AGAIN!

just the frequency with which these things keep happening to him... and all the more telling when compared to the drive Perez put in.

i suppose SV did compromise his race by getting in between the Renault's a bit (not sure whose decision that was but im guessing it was the team's), but its not like Vettee looked like he was otherwise going to get into the points anyways.

i really dont think next year with a new team will improve much. sad when this happens to any and every athlete, but imo he is past that point now. while he may have a swan song performance or two left in him, his skill set has declined far too much for him to ever come back to being competitive over the course of a whole season.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Not disputing the penalty, they made a mistake and fell foul which is fair enough, I’m trying to work out the process of applying the punishment without all the evidence....that seems somewhat strange, especially when that evidence is so readily available, and we know the stewards listen to the team radios all the time

You don’t need the radio to decide if the rule was broken and to dish out the race penalty.

It is useful when deciding if you put the points on the licence. Perhaps they should have waited to announce the points until later...

[Adam43]

I agree with the points above about the definition of the practice start area. Unlike the pit closed signage at Monza, it wasn’t well defined beforehand. There are lots of maps in the in pre race notes, it should be drawn on that. Although it is possible guidance and definitions are to be found elsewhere

It also strikes me that the penalty is harsh for the infraction, or at least the doubling up of it because it was done twice. Although as there is a potential performance benefit I guess it makes sense. ???