Driver Webber VS Vettel - Page 2

Super Hans · 27 Dec 2008, 09:38 (Ref:2361413)

Webber is a good driver, but not top drawer. Vettel looks like he could be top drawer, so I think he'll show Mark the way in 2009.

Graz · 27 Dec 2008, 12:17 (Ref:2361450)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Vettel may be the real deal, but that doesn't mean Webber's not somewhere a bit closed. Look how he wiped the floor with Coulthard this year (a guy who was once somewhere near Hakkinen).

Not a good comparison - Hakkinen always comfortably had the measure of DC over the course of a season and this year was at least one season too far for DC.

Latching onto some of the other posts, will Vettel disappoint? He won't but perhaps the Red Bull might.

Nick Heidfeld is a solid number 2, nothing more

Mark Webber has never had an outstanding team mate against him - until now. Let's indeed revisit mid season and purely on pace (both race and qualy) rather than car reliability, let's see where things stand.

Also Webbo's broken leg is a bummer but hopefully this won't be wheeled out as a reason for Vettel beating him - other drivers have suffered worse and come back

**Bononi** · 27 Dec 2008, 12:29 (Ref:2361457)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectator22

Okay all you committedWebber knockers/Vettel bandwagon jumpers (above) - who of you is prepared to hand $10 to the charity of your choice when Webber, as he has done all along, gets on top of his team-mate. Some facts/thoughts; (a) is there anyone in f1 who has consistently lifted average cars above their qualifying potential? (b) Webber has prevailed over every team-mate (possible exception, briefly, Heidfeld); what else can you do? Yes, hes never partnered Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc, but just as relevant, how recently have any of them been stuck in a midfield team. I think this will be one of the shocks of 2009, and illustrate just how short memory some people have, and how easily they are influenced by one or two performances (and how desperate f1 is for a new star). I look forward to revisiting this discussion around July/Aug 09

All his background and stats means nothing in this case. It's a different situation altogether. A young driver that performed like anybody in the current grid or past Webber's team mates. Different car, different rules. Not the same situation anyway.
Let's wait and see.

chunder · 27 Dec 2008, 12:56 (Ref:2361464)

AS an expert on the bike forum Aussies are notoriously loyal to their own and you cant blame them, in bikes they win everything!!

I do rate Webber and knowing a guy who world at RBR they would do anything for hi as he is a top bloke, need I say more!

Sadly Vettel look the real deal and Webber may have to raise his game and try and shift this Trulli esque 'qualifier' tag

duke_toaster · 27 Dec 2008, 13:17 (Ref:2361468)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectator22

Okay all you committedWebber knockers/Vettel bandwagon jumpers (above) - who of you is prepared to hand $10 to the charity of your choice when Webber, as he has done all along, gets on top of his team-mate.

Me.

Quote:

Some facts/thoughts; (a) is there anyone in f1 who has consistently lifted average cars above their qualifying potential?

Jarno Trulli. I'm not sure if Mark genuinely has lifted the car above its potential, the main issue with the car is either that it has lower race potential or the fact that there are Trabants that are more reliable than the Red Bull, especially last year.

Quote:

(b) Webber has prevailed over every team-mate (possible exception, briefly, Heidfeld); what else can you do? Yes, hes never partnered Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc, but just as relevant, how recently have any of them been stuck in a midfield team. I think this will be one of the shocks of 2009, and illustrate just how short memory some people have, and how easily they are influenced by one or two performances (and how desperate f1 is for a new star).

I look forward to revisiting this discussion around July/Aug 09

Let's look at Mark Webber's team-mates

2002 at Minardi - Alex Yoong (0 points). 2 points thanks to a 5th place at Australia. Aided by the fact that eight cars went out in the space of a few hundred meters at T1. Yoong is probably a nice guy, but it wasn't his talent that got him in to F1.
2003 at Jaguar - Team-mates are Justin Wilson and Antonio Pizzonia. OK, he handed the latter's butt back to him on a plate but you'd expect most F1 drivers to do, if one is a paydriver and the other is now doing Superleague Formula on the "way down".
2004 at Jaguar - Christian Klein hasn't set the world on fire in anything with wheels.
2005 at Williams - 4 points down on Heidfeld at the end of the season, if you exclude the races that Heidfeld was injured for. And Heidfeld never was race winner material.
2006 at Williams - Only beat a rookie that still isn't doing well by three points.
2007 at Red Bull - Were bookies taking bets on who would get the hydraulics failiures last year?
2008 at Red Bull - You'd expect most people to beat a DC that's a bit past it for F1 but not sensible enough for endurance.

Knowlesy · 27 Dec 2008, 14:07 (Ref:2361474)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Webber WILL be on the backfoot next year, but not because Vettel is the next hotshot lined up against him with more hype than experience. The couple of days lost testing and months lost out of the gym will probably be his biggest issue, then he has to deal with the lost ballast with KERS and how that effects him being ~10kg heavier than Vettel.

I see the excuses are being prepared pre-season this time around. Interesting turn of events.

FPV GTHO · 27 Dec 2008, 14:33 (Ref:2361484)

Spare me the ignorance Knowlesy.

Glen · 27 Dec 2008, 14:49 (Ref:2361490)

Losing car and fitness preparation time is hardly an excuse - I think it is a big drawback for MW. Vettel is certainly a rising (ready-risen) star, but Webber has always been phenomenally fast.

I just don't buy all the bad racer cr@p that gets thrown against Webber - he is one of the best out there and deserves to have had better equipment before now. If Vettel really does come out best it will seal his reputation as a coming megastar.

Marbot · 27 Dec 2008, 15:48 (Ref:2361505)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen

If Vettel really does come out best it will seal his reputation as a coming megastar.

Which probably then means Vettel to Ferrari and Webber to Renault.

Will Webber eventually get to drive a Renault (hire cars not included) ?

Matt · 27 Dec 2008, 20:36 (Ref:2361613)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectator22

(a) is there anyone in f1 who has consistently lifted average cars above their qualifying potential?

Both of the Toro Rosso drivers.

And hey, look, one of those was Seb Vettel!

Vettel is going to clean house against Webber. It's going to be a no contest.

**Born Racer** · 27 Dec 2008, 21:35 (Ref:2361630)

I may be seen to be a pedant here, but this thing about lifting a car above its potential- clearly the potential is there, so it is not possible.

I disagree anyway that the Toro Rosso drivers did that. They had a good car with a better engine than Red Bull. Credit to them. They are a well-run race team. But it was a customer car victory.

Knowlesy · 28 Dec 2008, 01:40 (Ref:2361683)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen

Losing car and fitness preparation time is hardly an excuse - I think it is a big drawback for MW. Vettel is certainly a rising (ready-risen) star, but Webber has always been phenomenally fast.

I just don't buy all the bad racer cr@p that gets thrown against Webber - he is one of the best out there and deserves to have had better equipment before now. If Vettel really does come out best it will seal his reputation as a coming megastar.

His reputation is already sealed. The guy has won a race.

TSR · 28 Dec 2008, 05:27 (Ref:2361714)

I think the 2009 will be Webber's biggest test since coming into F1. Vettel will either push Webber all the way or will completly outshine him.
Interesting times ahead, with new rules on the cars.

Knowlesy · 28 Dec 2008, 14:42 (Ref:2361864)

If anything it is a chance for Mark to keep his career going a lot longer than looks possible right now. If he can get within half a second of Vettel he's doing great, his reputation will be enhanced and he can be an effective number two for many years to come.

Others have done far worse than that.

Graz · 28 Dec 2008, 14:55 (Ref:2361869)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

If anything it is a chance for Mark to keep his career going a lot longer than looks possible right now. If he can get within half a second of Vettel he's doing great, his reputation will be enhanced and he can be an effective number two for many years to come.

Others have done far worse than that.

**Adam43** · 28 Dec 2008, 16:02 (Ref:2361886)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectator22

Okay all you committedWebber knockers/Vettel bandwagon jumpers (above) - who of you is prepared to hand $10 to the charity of your choice when Webber, as he has done all along, gets on top of his team-mate.

That is a little vague. What is your bet?
Can people who aren't Webber knockers/Vettel bangwagon jumpers have a go?

**Bononi** · 28 Dec 2008, 16:45 (Ref:2361909)

Yeah ! What's your bet ?

Basically I'm against betting on money, let's think of something more interesting.

BMW Süchtige · 28 Dec 2008, 16:46 (Ref:2361911)

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectator22

Vettel bandwagon jumpers

And just why are Vettel supporters suddenly 'band wagon jumpers'...
Personally speaking, I have followed Vettel (and Nico Rosberg) from their Formula BMW days... but even if that wasn't the case what should you care if I (or anyone for that matter) decided to support him only from today... my/our choice... don't you agree

As for the Webber vs Vettel battle, I am sure Mark will be a good team mate for Seb, he will push him hard, which is what Seb needs.

I will gladly donate £10 to charity IF Mark finishes 2009 ahead of Vettel.

Matt · 28 Dec 2008, 17:00 (Ref:2361921)

I'll donate $10 as well.

**Adam43** · 28 Dec 2008, 17:37 (Ref:2361943)

We need to define the actual assessment. Most points at the end of the season (when both of them take part in a race in a Red Bull)?
And the bet, money to charity if you like, or an alternate Bononi suggestion; what about the loser changes his sig for a whole year to "I could not have been more wrong about Webber/Vettel (delete as appropriate), it seems I overestimated him and know nothing about F1".

JeremySmith · 28 Dec 2008, 17:40 (Ref:2361947)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

I'll donate $10 as well.

I think you mean $20.00

Matt · 28 Dec 2008, 17:50 (Ref:2361954)

Make it $40.00 =]

Matt · 28 Dec 2008, 17:52 (Ref:2361956)

How about this, I'll donate £10 no matter the outcome, and if Webber beats Vettel, I'll donate £20.

JeremySmith · 28 Dec 2008, 17:53 (Ref:2361957)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

How about this, I'll donate £10 no matter the outcome, and if Webber beats Vettel, I'll donate £20.

Okay then...

**Bononi** · 28 Dec 2008, 19:25 (Ref:2361994)

With all donations, in behalf of us, veterans and fans, I'm opening an account to deposit the money from the bets.

I'm sending the details by PM.

View Poll Results: Who could grow the best beard?
Webber	50	84.75%
Vettel	9	15.25%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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