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Old 13 Apr 2017, 11:36 (Ref:3726075)   #26
Mike Bell
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Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield View Post
Ok, so if no one else will bite then .....
The top flight of this era of cars are very serious bits of kit. Surely now a proper licensing system has to be initiated - a licence and medical/fitness test that ensures that these cars are driven by capable, fit and responsible people? Having seen the struggles that some have had with Group C cars is it not irresponsible to not make sure that these car's drivers are "fit for purpose" - no pun intended?
When it would appear that today the only real test of driver's suitability can be carried out with a vernier caliper (to measure the drivers wallet) there are serious questions that need asking.
Just my ten pennies worth.
You give good value for ten pence, Simon!

The thought of some current historic racers attempting to get into, let alone drive, some of the kit suggested, is scary enough. Obviously there are those that would employ the services of a pro for driving duty, as happens now, so perhaps a chance of bit of extra work for some. Certainly some minimal medical and driving ability requirements needed for anyone wanting to race, IMHO. And forget normal licence grades, something extra should be legislated.

Interesting times.....

BTW Louis, Eau Rouge was flat in my 130bhp 924 when I drove it at Spa, but I guess that's not what you had in mind!
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Old 13 Apr 2017, 13:03 (Ref:3726088)   #27
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Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
You give good value for ten pence, Simon!

The thought of some current historic racers attempting to get into, let alone drive, some of the kit suggested, is scary enough. Obviously there are those that would employ the services of a pro for driving duty, as happens now, so perhaps a chance of bit of extra work for some. Certainly some minimal medical and driving ability requirements needed for anyone wanting to race, IMHO. And forget normal licence grades, something extra should be legislated.

Interesting times.....

BTW Louis, Eau Rouge was flat in my 130bhp 924 when I drove it at Spa, but I guess that's not what you had in mind!
If youre talking about Raidillon (not the watch brand Louis!) Yes its quite tricky flat out! Even with a group1!

Last edited by Gerard C; 13 Apr 2017 at 13:09.
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Old 13 Apr 2017, 13:14 (Ref:3726091)   #28
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BTW Louis, Eau Rouge was flat in my 130bhp 924 when I drove it at Spa, but I guess that's not what you had in mind!
But was it flat in the Gilbern?!
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Old 13 Apr 2017, 14:12 (Ref:3726099)   #29
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I think great care needs to be taken to ensure that the baby is not thrown out with the bath-water.

There are entrants with some superb machinery that add a lot to the historic scene, and who have some more than extremely capable drivers within the family who can peddle the cars right at the front, whilst some of their other cars are spread throughout the field.

If these entrants were to be denied the possibility of driving their own cars, it may well result in those cars not being seen on a regular basis, because it is quite obvious that part of the great joy in owning these beautiful cars is having the opportunity of actually driving them in races of cars of a similar ilk.
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Old 13 Apr 2017, 15:45 (Ref:3726126)   #30
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Mike, agreed with that. Its only about to find organisations or better to settle them to this kind of entrants, pure amateurs looking for pleasure only. At Jarama, the first Chevron was in 1'35"4 while my old bloke Claude was around 1'46"8. Two different worlds dont you think so?
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Old 13 Apr 2017, 21:43 (Ref:3726219)   #31
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To help you chaps out I suggest that a car is historic when it is old enough to smoke.
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Old 14 Apr 2017, 12:43 (Ref:3726338)   #32
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Originally Posted by Mike Bell View Post
From what I've seen and heard, in the USA a race car becomes 'historic' almost as soon as it isn't 'current'.

Ignoring jokes about new build Cobras, 'E' Types, etc., we've already seen 90s 'Supertourers' being raced competitively again, and track displays of late GT cars. This season Peter Auto has two events where GT1 cars (1994 to 2011) can be exercised. (https://peterauto.peter.fr/en/platea...id/224/nom/GT1)

Could this be a precursor to a race series for these cars, and if so, a good move? Or are they too young......
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Yes, but as mentioned in the initial post, only (AFAIK) in the USA would a 'modern' race car be welcomed in 'historic' racing. The cost of running LMP, GT and Formula stuff must be prohibitive. Even the later GpC cars seem to need an awful amount of man power to get on track, so are there enough owners or potential owners of modern stuff with deep enough pockets? And why would they want to race a car just a few years old, when they are likely wealthy enough to run the latest thing in a current series?
If that bothers you don't look at the HSR entry list for The Mitty next weekend at Road Atlanta. 3 DPs, 3 LMPCs and a few GTs in the list. Last year was more entertaining when the DPs and LMPCs raced in both HSR and IMSA in the same season, including a car that raced at Petit in Oct 15 and returned to racing in April 16 with HSR.
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Old 14 Apr 2017, 15:45 (Ref:3726390)   #33
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If that bothers you don't look at the HSR entry list for The Mitty next weekend at Road Atlanta. 3 DPs, 3 LMPCs and a few GTs in the list. Last year was more entertaining when the DPs and LMPCs raced in both HSR and IMSA in the same season, including a car that raced at Petit in Oct 15 and returned to racing in April 16 with HSR.

Doesn't bother me one bit! When I was lucky to race at Sebring in 2013 we had an Audi LMP car in the same test session as my buddy's '65 Mustang I was sharing. Unfortunately the Audi collided with one of Cobra Automotive's Shelby Mustangs and the driver of the Proto took no further part in the meeting.....

Last edited by Mike Bell; 14 Apr 2017 at 17:45. Reason: Clarification
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Old 14 Apr 2017, 17:23 (Ref:3726416)   #34
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And talking of the USA, for auction the other side of the pond, we have a suitable base for an entry- http://auctionsamerica.com/events/fe...=AS17&ID=r0160

I don't think it has an engine included looking at the guide price......
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Old 14 Apr 2017, 19:16 (Ref:3726434)   #35
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And talking of the USA, for auction the other side of the pond, we have a suitable base for an entry- http://auctionsamerica.com/events/fe...=AS17&ID=r0160

I don't think it has an engine included looking at the guide price......
None of the HPDs have engines and the discount Lola. I'm thinking the livery might cause some pause at tracks.
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Old 21 Apr 2017, 18:41 (Ref:3728234)   #36
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It's happening again, but almost passed me by....

The HSCC run Super Touring Car Trophy now includes a class for Pre 2006 FIA S2000 cars and invited n/a BTCC cars. There should be a couple of entries in their race at Donington HF weekend after this....

Eligible cars class structure here- https://hscc.org.uk/championships/hs...ng-car-trophy/
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Old 21 Apr 2017, 20:34 (Ref:3728249)   #37
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>>>>>And why would they want to race a car just a few years old, when they are likely wealthy enough to run the latest thing in a current series?

Because in a current series you need the right licences, seeding, and are up against cream-of-the-crop drivers. In historic it's all old boys together on lesser permits.

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Old 22 Apr 2017, 05:24 (Ref:3728295)   #38
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(And why would they want to race a car just a few years old, when they are likely wealthy enough to run the latest thing in a current series?)

Because in a current series you need the right licences, seeding, and are up against cream-of-the-crop drivers. In historic it's all old boys together on lesser permits.
Thank you Max for the (slightly belated) response!
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Old 23 Apr 2017, 11:38 (Ref:3728643)   #39
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Sorry. Been a busy couple of weeks.

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Old 2 May 2017, 15:18 (Ref:3730582)   #40
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Rudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
part of the allure of historic racing was / is that the development race is much much less intense than in most modern high profile series that still get amateur participation

you can do and finance VLN, a friend of mine does it
but the cost to run competitive in something like GT3 or Ferrari Challenge and similar is eyewatering (had a friend who did that and had to throw in to towel, allthough he prepped the cars himself)
you can top this of course and try to enter the proper Le Mans 24 hour race......

when I started out in Formula Junior the idea was that You built a car, did that right and could race it for a number of years
thats no longer the case in many historic forms of racing
the development race is on, unfortunately
more in some formulas, less in others, depends a bit who is racing with how much money to throw around and how tightly this is policed

Simon hit it on the head with his remark about driver qualification
the more modern cars mentioned above can pull 3 gs or much much more
that should not surprise because even 1980ies Group C cars would pull 5 g in period if well set up
You should to go to the gym and work out to drive a Group C car like the Sauber Mercedes, Jaguar XJ14 or somesuch at competive speeds for more than 5 minutes

BTW I am convinced that the relative lack of success of the Porsche 962 in Historic Group C which is the complete opposite of what happened in period is down to the fact, that the infrastructure in amateur racing is not able to set up and dial these cars into their working window on the control tires available.

driving a 2,5 litre Lotus 18 GP car, that pulls about 1 g is babysitting in comparison, it can scare you witless, but it does not tax your personal fitness that much as it slides so much, not over the 25 minutes of a historic race
was different for Moss in Monca 1961 over 80 laps, of course
a slicks and wings F3 Ralt will demand much more fitness that a 1960ies f1 car on L section Dunlop tires
a late 1970es F2 is quicker than a early 70ies F1 car and surprisingly will demand a ligher fitness level

been there, done that, speak from experience

so the ideal historic racer for the more modern sophisticated cars would have to have :
- tons of money
- good level of personal fitness
- driving ability
- respect, time and willingness to get one with the car
that might not be present in all applicants

exactly as Simon said......

the upsurge in Historic Formula Junior prices could be partly explained that some moneyed racers realise that this is more within the the scope of their abilities

yes, I would love to see more modern cars out
why not
enjoyed the M3s at the Donington Historic Festival, for instance
I love watching Historic Group C and HFO

buuuut, lets make sure nobody gets hurt.

and of course, Louis is right, the electronics in the modern cars make it a challenge
either you rip it out and replace by something easier
or the cars that are for sale dont have to full works engine and software spec in them anyway as they were stripped out long ago.


RuE
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