2.0 Turbo I4 LMP2 motor

[knighty]

Hi Folks - I just found this and thought you lot might be interested, it turns out it was Mountune who convinced the ACO to allow a 2.0 I4 turbo into the LMP2 regulations, it really does look like a good value engine for entering the LMP2 scene, but admittedley untried at this point in time........ No, I do not work for Mountune!

follow this link

http://www.mountune.com/racing/news/aav

.

[Speed-King]

Any relation to the 2l-Ford they are developing for Team Aon's BTCC-cars?

Edit: Just read the pdfs on their site and appearantly the two engines are indeed related

[knighty]

heres another few links of interest

http://www.mountune.com/racing/news/aat


this is the rally-cross car that the LMP2 engine appears to have spawned from, from previous experience these things are extreemly powerful circa 500-700bhp....gulp!

http://www.mountune.com/racing/news/aau

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[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by knighty

heres another few links of interest

http://www.mountune.com/racing/news/aat


this is the rally-cross car that the LMP2 engine appears to have spawned from, from previous experience these things are extreemly powerful circa 500-700bhp....gulp!

http://www.mountune.com/racing/news/aau

.

At least one team racing in LMS this year went a fair way down the line of copnsidering running this engine in LMP2 this year

[chernaudi]

I know that this is irrelevant to a large extent but could this also form the basework for a possible LMP1 engine.

And more on topic, it seems that most 2.0 I4 LMP1/2 engines are/were derived from stock-block engines (AER P07 was Rover K/N derived, AER's Mazda engine was based on the MZR engine, this engine is a Ford based design for examples), while the AMR I6 was designed from scratch for racing. Granted, there aren't many 2.0 inline 6s out there, but I've wondered why almost all I4s have been heavily modified stock block engines? Simple sources and good bases? Or is the inline 4 from a chassis design stand point a good basis (half a V8)?

[knighty]

interesting, so why did they go the other route???...

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by knighty

interesting, so why did they go the other route???...

Just too risky - new (ish) chassis and new engine - They've taken a rather more conservative route for their entry into the fray - disappointing perhaps but entirely sensible!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by knighty

heres another few links of interest

http://www.mountune.com/racing/news/aat

They quote a weight of 98 kg, a power output of 440 bhp @ 7000 rpm and 580 Nm torque @ 5750 rpm.

The Mountune engine is very light and cheap, but it seems underpowered in comparison with its competitors:

• Nismo VK45DE: 450+ hp, 580 Nm, 143 kg
• Judd HK: 475 bhp @ 9000 rpm, 406 Nm @ 7000 rpm, 140 kg

[Tim the Grey]

Not THAT shy on BHP, well up there on torque, and WAY lighter, in Kilos and Dollars...

I too am surprised SOMEONE hasn't given it a punt, if only in LMS...

[JAG]

I could see such an engine being popular when second-hand P2's come on the market.

[NaBUru38]

Being turbo, it must have a less peaky power curve, that is better low-end power.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

They quote a weight of 98 kg, a power output of 440 bhp @ 7000 rpm and 580 Nm torque @ 5750 rpm.

The Mountune engine is very light and cheap, but it seems underpowered in comparison with its competitors:

• Nismo VK45DE: 450+ hp, 580 Nm, 143 kg
• Judd HK: 475 bhp @ 9000 rpm, 406 Nm @ 7000 rpm, 140 kg

Interesting set of numbers gwyllion, but I really dont believe them, Judd have a history of under-quoting true power by 30-40bhp, I believe their engine is comfortably over 500bhp, but they dont want to rock the boat with the ACO......Ian Dawson has publically said on DSC the IES 4.0 V8 Nissan LMP2 engine is making 490bhp, and from what he has also told me privatley I believe this to be true........I think its also fair to assume that this mountune engine is capable of "high 400" power, but they just dont want to say it publically for the same reasons as Judd dont.

[Mike_Wooshy]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I know that this is irrelevant to a large extent but could this also form the basework for a possible LMP1 engine.

And more on topic, it seems that most 2.0 I4 LMP1/2 engines are/were derived from stock-block engines (AER P07 was Rover K/N derived, AER's Mazda engine was based on the MZR engine, this engine is a Ford based design for examples), while the AMR I6 was designed from scratch for racing. Granted, there aren't many 2.0 inline 6s out there, but I've wondered why almost all I4s have been heavily modified stock block engines? Simple sources and good bases? Or is the inline 4 from a chassis design stand point a good basis (half a V8)?

The Mazda MZR road engine is the exact same engine as the Ford Duratec thats being used here by Mountune. While the MZR is worked over by AER. Only diffrences is the MZR in road trim has Direct injection (DISI) and I'm not sure it was ever implimented in the race engine by AER.

[gwyllion]

The only part that the AER MZR-R engine shares with a production Mazda engine is the badge

[Mike_Wooshy]

Well there we go then scrap the part about the MZR being worked over by AER in my previous post. But about the road engines being the same is true.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The only part that the AER MZR-R engine shares with a production Mazda engine is the badge

well said!....... any links between a road car engine and AER's MZR LMP1 engine is marketing based BS, its a complete clean sheet bespoke race engine lead by Oliver Allan, who has now left AER and set up his own race engine design consultancy business.......originally with the life expectancy of a mayfly.......but now its much better with more scaffolding........but hey - you can always blame all your problems of the "blend of fuel from the ACO" how convenient

Regarding the MG LMP675 engine, that has nothing to do with a Rover K-series.......infact AER used a Ford Sierra Cosworth YB engine as a test mule, and they basically copied the combustion chamber layout, hence if you compare both heads, they look identical in this area.......again, this engine was a clean sheet bespoke design lead by Mike Mills

sorry to split hairs.......back on subject

[chernaudi]

So MG Rover resorted to using a Ford-inspired design for their LMP675/2 engine (and hence the AER P07)? I'll bet you that British Leyland had wished that they had that idea! Although the undersquare K-series Rover makes little sense from that standpoint alone (racing engines, even the LMP1 diesels, tend to be oversquare to maximize revs), let alone the fact that early engines were known for head gasket failure.

But it seems that most of these engines are Ford designs heavily modified for racing--only thing that the road and racing MZR engines probably actually share is the block, and I'll bet, given what's been said here, it's been modified beyond recognition and shares little with the road version.

Only thing keeping them from being full-on racing engines is that they can't be fully stress mounted, something that VW's F3 engine had, but Ulrich Baretzky designed it (as well as the BMW F1 inline 4 and all the Audi LMP900 and LMP1 engines), and he's not telling us how he did it.

But I still find it interesting that the turbo LMP2/1 4 cylinder engines have a (albeit broadly by the time the engine men are finished!) stock block basis, while the 3.4 V8s are designed as pure, full-on racing engines from the start.

[gwyllion]

[Tim the Grey]

You know, actually, for once, I don't think he is!

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

They quote a weight of 98 kg, a power output of 440 bhp @ 7000 rpm and 580 Nm torque @ 5750 rpm.

The Mountune engine is very light and cheap, but it seems underpowered in comparison with its competitors:

• Nismo VK45DE: 450+ hp, 580 Nm, 143 kg
• Judd HK: 475 bhp @ 9000 rpm, 406 Nm @ 7000 rpm, 140 kg

I like those numbers. But can it take it for 24hrs straight?
Does the chassis get a weight break? And why only 4 cylinders? Surely a turbo 2.0litre v8 would be bonkers is it allowed?

[WolfsburgRS]

I think with the right engineering it shouldn't be a problem. The Lehmann / VW 2.0 turbo won LMP675 back at Le Mans in 2001, and managed 5th overall. They did quite well in 2000 / 2002 as well IIRC. That motor was only semi-street based, as it was essentially built to the specifications of the still-born Golf A59 rally car which was a perfect 86x86 bore/stroke, but it was originally to be a street homologated engine for Group A purposes...

Back in 1992/1993 the Toyota GTP cars were nearly unbeatable with their 2.1, street-based 4 cylinder turbo motors. They won the Daytona 24 and Sebring 12 outright in 1993.