Group A Rover SD1/Vitesse Rally History (sep from main thread)

[chunterer]

Good points raised you guys, that overhead view in the last attachment certainly does 'seem' like a race shell? This was taken in 1983 or 84 right?

If it's '83 the best bet was that it would've been an ex Grp 1 or rallyesprint shell rather than a pukka Grp A race car as I would've thought there would be too much risk running a current race spec car on a rallye in case it got badly stacked?

Corliss, you didn't happen to ask Ken when he's next going to grace us with his input? We could do with our next installment (1984 TWR builds) that he promised us 2 years ago!!!

[MG Rover Sport]

I'll put these events in date order, hopefully making it somewhat easier to solve.

The photo below is definitely an ex-race chassis, and shows Tom Walkinshaw / John Davenport on the 1983 Criterium Lucien Bianchi in Belgium (2-4 September 1983) - the centre-lock wheels are the dead giveaway.




The photos below shows Tom Walkinshaw / John Davenport on the 1984 National Breakdown Rally (17/18 February 1984)





The photo below shows Marc Duez / Willy Lux on the 1984 Circuit of Ardennes in Belgium (8-10 March 1984). This is the first event that I have recorded for that registration number, however it later went on to compete in the 1984 Rothmans Circuit of Ireland Rally with Malkin / Arthur (20-24 April) - although they retired from the later after tearing off the rear suspension on Stage 6. Maybe the car was too badly damaged to repair and rally again?



Here's another from the same event

[MG Rover Sport]

There is another event which we haven't included above, but which I am still trying to source a photo of - the reshelled FJO 450Y on the 1983 Rothmans Manx International Rally (15-17 September 1983). That is at the moment the missing piece of the jigsaw. Go on KA - do your usual sleuthing...

Another thought that has come into my mind, is I reckon TWR had two cars prepared as rallycars side by side (a) FJO 450Y as used and crashed badly on the 1983 Criterium Lucien Bianchi AND (b) an almost identical car (or possibly just bodyshell?) that was used to rebuild the damaged car inbetween being crashed in Belgium on 2-4 September and appearing in the Isle of Man on 15-17 September? If the two cars are shown above, the only external differences appear to be the dark blue stripes and the single centre lock wheels of the earlier car?

Also note how on all of the above photos, the nearside B post is white and the offside B post is black!

[MG Rover Sport]

I have found some photos of the No 60 Rover Vitesse from the 1983 Rothmans Manx International Rally, and can confirm that it too is registered FJO 450Y, and is in the earlier livery / specification, ie complete with the additional dark blue stripes and the single centre lock wheels. It also has the same white nearside B post and black offside B post!

I cannot post details here though until I check with the photographer, as he is a professional and I respect his copyright issues.

Why would the car have different colour B posts I wonder. It would be nice to find some offside photos from the car's debut in Belgium to see what side the B post is on that side. Not sure what it would prove though.

[MG Rover Sport]

See below an image of FJO 450Y on the 1983 Rothmans Manx International Rally. Notice the additional dark blue stripes, centre lock wheels and white nearside B post...

[KA]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

See below an image of FJO 450Y on the 1983 Rothmans Manx International Rally. Notice the additional dark blue stripes, centre lock wheels and white nearside B post...

Great pic- one curious thing about it, seems odd to see Pond (a three-time winner of the event by 1983 I think?) seeded right down at 60- A late entry or last minute change of driver by TWR resulting in the Rover being slotted in where there was a gap in the list (and presumably starting further up the field?), or had the Manx organisers done something odd like seeding all the Group A cars in a block some way down the field?

[MG Rover Sport]

The car was initially entered on the 1983 Manx for Tom Walkinshaw to drive at No 60, but apparently Tom broke some ribs before the rally so Tony sat in for him at the last minute - hence what appears to be like a very lowly seeding for the great three times winner, Tony Pond!

Looking more and more at the above photo I've posted from the 1983 Manx, and the one on the previous page that KA posted a link to from the 1983 Lucien Bianchi in Belgium - No 21 with the spotlights on the front of the car - I have noticed the following subtle differences between the two cars which might back up the fact that it was reshelled or rebuilt into a new car during the two weeks between Belgium and the Manx. Here they are in a series of 'before and after' (or 'Belgium and Manx') montages...

Rear side windows - chrome strip at base appears to be present in Belgium but missing in the Isle of Man...



Tax disc - appears to be in a different position in Belgium compared to the Isle of Man...



Registration plate - appears to have different style lettering and spacing in Belgium compared to the Isle of Man...

[MG Rover Sport]

I have a book by Transport Source Books entitled ' Rover SD1 in Motor Racing', which is basically a photocopy of various articles from magazines like Autocar, Motor, Autosport, Motoring News, etc. Not sure you can get them anymore, but it's nice to see all the articles together in one book. The guy did it all totally legitimately by paying the publishers of each magazine so much for each article to be reproduced within the variious books.

On Page 32 of the book I have, there is a 3-page article from Autosport called 'Rallying a Rover Vitesse - Peter Foubister talks to Tom Walkinshaw about his exploits in a TWR Rover on the Bianchi Rally'!

The article is basically a a Q&A interview with Tom - Peter asking the question, and Tom answering. There are also 7 or 8 photos - the majority of which are from Belgium (including the B&W photo of the crashed car that was posted on the previous page).

Interesting point worth mentioning though is the introduction - which I have typed out here for all to see...
__________

'For some time Walkinshaw has wanted to drive on the Manx International, and more recently he has become interested in talking a closer look at rallying. Hence the careful preparation of the Rover rally car and the establishment of a small programme of events, starting with the Bianchi Rally earlier this month.

Hours after the expensive accident that destroyed the first and only rallying Vitesse, one could have expected an atmosphere of depression.

Instead, around the dinner table that night, ideas were flashing about a suggested timetable for the preparation of a new car in time for the Manx. Where they could find another shell, when it must be back from the paint shop, and even improvements that could be included on the second car. Between Bianchi and Manx there were just five working days - that was OK - and a four car team at the Tourist Trophy - that was under control.

The real problem seemed to be finding a shell to get the job started and as the evening continued, thoughts turned to some radical alternatives. Surely it would not take too much to convert one of the Sanyo sponsored racers?

Jeff Allam will never know how lucky he was, because there was one thing certain. The TWR equipe would be in Douglas, on time...'
__________

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

I...Jeff Allam will never know how lucky he was, because there was one thing certain. The TWR equipe would be in Douglas, on time...'[/I]
__________

Does this mean that Jeff Allam's racer was 'borrowed' re-painted etc. by Team Boss Tom for the rally, then returned to Touring Car specification?
Surely this would not be anything like a practical solution, even for the mighty TWR?
I'd have thought it more likely that there were plenty of 'spare' bodyshells kicking around in Kidlington, and Tom just re-shelled the rally car into one of those. (This is also compounded by the story that I was told many years ago that any Rovers that Tom raced had very special shells to try and level the playing field between him and his professional drivers...)

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

...Looking more and more at the above photo I've posted from the 1983 Manx, and the one on the previous page that KA posted a link to from the 1983 Lucien Bianchi in Belgium - No 21 with the spotlights on the front of the car - I have noticed the following subtle differences between the two cars which might back up the fact that it was reshelled or rebuilt into a new car during the two weeks between Belgium and the Manx. Here they are in a series of 'before and after' (or 'Belgium and Manx') montages...

Rear side windows - chrome strip at base appears to be present in Belgium but missing in the Isle of Man...



Tax disc - appears to be in a different position in Belgium compared to the Isle of Man...



Registration plate - appears to have different style lettering and spacing in Belgium compared to the Isle of Man...

I'm not so sure this proves that the cars are different (but well spotted that man). I too spotted the front number plate difference, but that's hardly a major item to change, and I feel the same about the chrome window strip, that could have been ripped off anywhere in-between the two photographs. Plus, going for the tax disc position, I think that could be an optical illusion due to the angle of the photograph. If you look carefully, in the picture taken (from above) in Belgium you can also see the heated windscreen strip in the corner of the screen below the disc, but this is not visible in the other picture (taken from below) where the disc appears closer to the bottom corner. I think the fact that in both pictures it shows a white B pillar is more conclusive proof that they are one and the same car rather than comparing items such as windscreens (as one is with, one without sunstrip) and numberplates etc. (But honestly, well done for the ideas)

[MG Rover Sport]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Does this mean that Jeff Allam's racer was 'borrowed' re-painted etc. by Team Boss Tom for the rally, then returned to Touring Car specification?
Surely this would not be anything like a practical solution, even for the mighty TWR?
I'd have thought it more likely that there were plenty of 'spare' bodyshells kicking around in Kidlington, and Tom just re-shelled the rally car into one of those. (This is also compounded by the story that I was told many years ago that any Rovers that Tom raced had very special shells to try and level the playing field between him and his professional drivers...)

I too doubt that TWR would have re-painted a Sanyo touring car for the Manx Rally, and then re-painted it back to Sanyo livery afterwards. The more likely situation is that they either had a spare touring car that wasn't actually being used at the time, and that was used, OR they had a new spare bodyshell that required painting and final assembly.

The way I read it, I don't really think the author of the article knew it was actually a Sanyo car that was used as a basis for the rally car. I reckon he just added that little bit (and the reference to Jeff Allam) to make it a touch more interesting for Joe Public to relate to. I could be wrong however...

[MG Rover Sport]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I'm not so sure this proves that the cars are different (but well spotted that man). I too spotted the front number plate difference, but that's hardly a major item to change, and I feel the same about the chrome window strip, that could have been ripped off anywhere in-between the two photographs. Plus, going for the tax disc position, I think that could be an optical illusion due to the angle of the photograph. If you look carefully, in the picture taken (from above) in Belgium you can also see the heated windscreen strip in the corner of the screen below the disc, but this is not visible in the other picture (taken from below) where the disc appears closer to the bottom corner. I think the fact that in both pictures it shows a white B pillar is more conclusive proof that they are one and the same car rather than comparing items such as windscreens (as one is with, one without sunstrip) and numberplates etc. (But honestly, well done for the ideas)

I agree VIVA GT, the white nearside B post - visible on ALL the photos that I posted on the previous page - is the really only conclusive point indicating that it 'could be' the same car that competed on all of the events - albeit with different registration numbers. What I haven't seen yet is any of the offside of the Lucien Bianchi rally debut car, to see that it too has a black offside B post like the later events.

Without any real proof - ie some form of confirmation from the likes of Ken Clark, or A N Other - I really don't know what else we can resort to in an attempt to solve the mystery, apart from comparing photos from each entry on each event. Offside photos from the Belgian debut are now quite important to source.

However I am still of the opinion - no disrespect to you VIVA GT - that all the differences that I have highlit above, point to it being a different car. OK the chrome strip could have been ripped off on a Belgian or Manx stage, but I still think the wndscreen and number plate are relevant. That tax disc is loads closer to the corner of the screen - even taking into account the lower angle of the photograph. Sorry to disagree with you on that count.

If we do ever find hotos of the offside from the Belgian debut event, and that turns out to be a white offside B post to match the nearside, then I that that would be fairly unanimous that it was a different car as all the other events since have it with a black offside B post.

All speculation anyway till somebody with actual 1983 knowledge enlightens us to the actual identity of this one car, or these two cars.

[KA]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Does this mean that Jeff Allam's racer was 'borrowed' re-painted etc. by Team Boss Tom for the rally, then returned to Touring Car specification?
Surely this would not be anything like a practical solution, even for the mighty TWR?
I'd have thought it more likely that there were plenty of 'spare' bodyshells kicking around in Kidlington, and Tom just re-shelled the rally car into one of those. (This is also compounded by the story that I was told many years ago that any Rovers that Tom raced had very special shells to try and level the playing field between him and his professional drivers...)

I'm taking the 'Jeff Allam will never know how lucky he was' comment to mean that converting his Sanyo car was an idea they thought about but didn't go with. Going on the dates quoted earlier, the Bianchi was on 2/4 Sept and the Manx on 15/17 Sept- with the TT at Silverstone falling between them on 11th Sept.

The four car TT entry mentioned was a pair of Jags, and two Rovers- a Sanyo car for Allam/Lovett and the yellow Hepolite car for Soper/Metge.
I don't see that pressing one of the TT cars into service would have been neccessary, as there would have been at least a couple of spare cars available if really needed- the other Sanyo car and the lhd Barclay car used at Spa.

Another thought- when did the last couple of BTCC rounds fall? If, for example there was a BTCC race the weekend after the TT, with the Manx finishing on Saturday 17th, then having 3 cars ready for a BTCC race the same weekend might have been a potential problem...

Any alleged 'special' shells for Tom wouldn't have been an issue this early in the programme, as I don't think he raced the Rovers himself until the Bastos cars in '85- as a driver, he always stuck to the Jaguar side of the programme in 83/84

[MG Rover Sport]

Originally Posted by KA

...as there would have been at least a couple of spare cars available if really needed- the other Sanyo car and the lhd Barclay car used at Spa.

I doubt they'd have chosen the left hand drive Barclay car then, after all that would have involved the additional work converting it to right hand drive, as well as all of the other work they had to tackle between the Bianchi and the Manx. The other Sanyo car does sound a good possibility at the moment therefore.

The article states '...the careful preparation of the Rover rally car...' AND '...the expensive accident that destroyed the first and only rallying Vitesse...' - both of these statements imply to me that the build / preparation of the very first rally Rover Vitesse that debuted on the 1983 Bianchi Rally was a more lengthy and careful process.

The fact that it uses single centre locking wheels (Ronals?) from the touring cars, possibly points to the fact that TWR had yet to design / machine any specific 5-stud hubs to fit the wheels to for rally use.

My view is therefore that the Bianchi entry is a newly built TWR rally car that had no previous touring car history, but possibly was allocated a TWR Chassis No from the sequence that you guys insist on baffling me with by quoting 005, 014, 009 all the time! Are there any numbers actually missing from the 1983 sequence of cars that could possibly be this car? Another point which you might not be aware about is that the later rally cars, ie A478 WOE to A480 WOE and B563 AOX to B565 AOX were actually built by Austin Rover Motorsport at Cowley instead of TWR at Kidlington. These cars therefore do not have a TWR Chassis No but an ARM Chassis No instead.

I am also of the opinion that the Manx entry was rush-built in a fortnight between the two events, and that (for speed) it was based on an existing spare or redundant touring car.

[VIVA GT]

I certainly agree with all of that David. I suppose it would have been relatively easy for TWR to assemble the rally car using a ready prepped bodyshell and Touring Car suspension components (which they would have had loads about them I would have thought). Ultimately I'm sure this would have been far more straightforward than converting a complete Touring Car into a Group A rally car due to the additional equipment that would need to have by comparison.

I'm also with KA's interpretation of what the journalist wrote at the time regarding how lucky Jeff Allam was. (In fact it's struck a chord deep back inside my memory somewhere).

[MG Rover Sport]

I agree too!

Next search is to find some more Bianchi images, specifically the offside, as well as some further Manx images if at all possible. I'll get back to you later if I find anything.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

My view is therefore that the Bianchi entry is a newly built TWR rally car that had no previous touring car history, but possibly was allocated a TWR Chassis No from the sequence that you guys insist on baffling me with by quoting 005, 014, 009 all the time! Are there any numbers actually missing from the 1983 sequence of cars that could possibly be this car.

Good points all, but the last time Ken was on he provided a list of all the 1983Group A TWR chassis built. It's in the Chassis Archive if you'd like a peer David.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....17&postcount=9

One of the 6 built for '83 was definitely a rally car (006?) the one that got pranged and allegedly written off and the first one, 001, dubbed 'test and development' chassis (which later went to France?) could be a good contender for one of the rally shells I would've thought?

What we're waiting for, which will be of significance for the rally programme as well as track, is Ken's list of 1984 onwards builds. Now we've already assumed how many were built for/in '84 but have yet to marry that up to specific chassis numbers. Ken actually said he would provide it but hasn't yet because he's been pretty busy.

The real key I'm now thinking is that cars were perhaps not built for specific years, but in 2 separate batches I.E 001-012 (83-85) and then 013-020 (85/86) with those different pillars and interiors that KA identified so well recently?

[MG Rover Sport]

Thanks foir the reminder of the Chassis Archive 'chunterer'. Makes very interesting reading, especially the bit about...
__________

006
Herbie Clips liveried rally car built for Tom Walkinshaw/John Davenport on the Bianchi Rally.
Subsequent history TBC. Believed to have been written off. (possibly part of the Del Lines deal above)
__________

...as has ben said on numerous occasions though, we really do need Ken to add the next stage of the car's history and development by adding the 1984 cars and so on. No disrespect though, as I appreciate work comes first.

The only thing that isn't quite right in the above quoted text from the Chassis Archive is to state that the Bianchi Rally car was Herbie Clips sponsored, as that didn't happen till the 1984 National Breakdown Rally.

[MG Rover Sport]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

1983 cars.

006 Herbie clips rally car. Tom Walkinshaw/ John Davenport. Bianchi Rally.

This is where the information came from regarding the 1983 Bianchi Rally entry being Herbie Clips sponsored - Post #248 on Page 17 by the way! No criticism of course Ken - it's been a long time.

I also found the following post detailing the history of the 1983 Barclay sponsored left hand drive car, which shows that it couldn't have been used as the basis for a rally car, as it is accounted for up until 1985...

Originally Posted by ken clarke

Chassis 005 History.

Built in 1983 as Left hand drive car for Eddy Joosen to compete in Selected rounds of Belgian touring car championship & selected ETC rounds. 1st race, Zandvoort 1983, car painted White with black interior. 2nd race, Belgian Grand Prix support @ Spa, now painted cream & brown & sposored by 'Barclay' cigarettes. 3rd race, German Grand Prix support race, (Barclay). 4th race, Spa 24 hours, (Barclay). Other races during 83. Also Driven in 83 by Steve Soper & Rene Metge. I was there at all these races.

1984, became Marc Duez French Production championship car, now painted in Marlboro colours.

1985, became French Production championship test car for John Louis Schlesser.

Never owned by Kevin Eaton or raced by Gerry Marshall. May have been owned by GM as a motor trader. Gerry brokered many race car deals. This is correct to the best of my knowledge. Certainly 1983/4/5 are 100% correct.

[KA]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

Fair comments Gregor - I guess it is easy to believe that everything that is written is the gospel truth. That's what makes all this research very rewarding - relying on the process of elimination, and the opinions of the majority.

David, just going back to the rallycars for a second, do you by any chance have a complete listing of entries and results for the works/ex-works cars?

I'm trying to work out the international appearances for the various works cars at the moment and I'm sure I've got a couple of events missing. I've got everything that's been mentioned recently in this thread, but I think I remember mention of an appearance by either Pond or Duez on a German event in '84, possibly the Hunsruck?

[MG Rover Sport]

Originally Posted by KA

David, just going back to the rallycars for a second, do you by any chance have a complete listing of entries and results for the works/ex-works cars?

I'm trying to work out the international appearances for the various works cars at the moment and I'm sure I've got a couple of events missing. I've got everything that's been mentioned recently in this thread, but I think I remember mention of an appearance by either Pond or Duez on a German event in '84, possibly the Hunsruck?

Likewise, no problems 'KA' - I'll see what I can rustle together for you, but as it is scribbled down on a few sheets of A4 lined paper at the moment, you might have to bare with me a moment.

Regarding the 1984 Hunsruck Rally, and Tony Pond / Rob Arthur in the No 6 Daily Mirror / Unipart sponsored entry of B564 AOX...

[MG Rover Sport]

My Post #400 on Page 27 shows the offside of the 1983 Bianchi Rally car with a black B post...

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

(Above) Tom Walkinshaw / John Davenport understeering in FJO450Y on the 1983 Criterium Lucien Bianchi Rallye in Belgium - retired due to accident

[MG Rover Sport]

Part 2 : enjoy...

[MG Rover Sport]

The signatures are (left to right) : 'Best Wishes, John' is by John Davenport, then Marc Duez, Tony Pond & Rob Arthur - team manager, two drivers, and a co-driver.

No problems at all asking - where would this thread be without the odd question from time to time?

[chunterer]

Ah yes I see now, thanks for that David.