[Multi 21] Red Bull-Honda

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

McLaren got rid of Honda. Went forward.

"Forward" -- McLaren are hardly challenging for podiums and wins as they predicted, if anything McLaren look more of a farce than they did before...

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

STR you could create a discussion about, but not McLaren. They dropped Honda and immediately improved with no other changes.

"improved"

Unreliable in winter testing, qualifying for races in last place. Both Hamilton and Ricciardo refusing McLaren's contract offers. That McLaren car sure is great!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Whether McLaren are doing well or not, the engine is an upgrade.

If the Renault engine is better why are Red Bull refusing it?

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Literally, it's as simple as cars with Renault engines do better than cars with Honda.

Except next season Red Bull - Honda will almost certainly outscore both Renault-Renault and McLaren-Renault...

I'd happy to bet you a Mugen K-series oil cap.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

What's strange? Honda are great and have Socihiro Honda's racing spirit to race anywhere and everywhere. It would have been great if they had stayed with Lola chassis in F1 from 1960's to the present day with continuous entries, but oh well for whatever reasons they have chopped and changed between various programs.

So the F1 program is uncompetitive -- that's fine, Honda are out there racing with varying degrees of success in BTCC, WTCR, Indycar, IMSA, MotoGP... Anywhere and everywhere there is a vehicle with an engine in it you will find Honda, even the putt-putt cars at your local hire go-kart track!

IMSA and IndyCar, fall under the auspices of Honda Performance Development, Inc., which was founded in 1993 and is based in Santa Clarita, California. It's a subsidiary of the American Honda Motor Company, Inc., which was founded in 1959 and based in L.A.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

IMSA and IndyCar, fall under the auspices of Honda Performance Development, Inc., which was founded in 1993 and is based in Santa Clarita, California. It's a subsidiary of the American Honda Motor Company, Inc., which was founded in 1959 and based in L.A.

That's correct.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

"Forward" -- McLaren are hardly challenging for podiums and wins as they predicted, if anything McLaren look more of a farce than they did before...



"improved"

Unreliable in winter testing, qualifying for races in last place. Both Hamilton and Ricciardo refusing McLaren's contract offers. That McLaren car sure is great!

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If the Renault engine is better why are Red Bull refusing it?



Except next season Red Bull - Honda will almost certainly outscore both Renault-Renault and McLaren-Renault...

I'd happy to bet you a Mugen K-series oil cap.

So let's just clarify a few things here, because you're putting words into my mouth (posts) which weren't there.

I never said McLaren are challenging for wins. I never said McLaren are doing as well as they predicted. I never said McLaren were less of a farce. I never said they were reliable. I never said they were getting Lewis and Ricciardo to drive. I never said the car was great.

I said McLaren are doing better. In the 2017 F1 season, McLaren scored just 30 points. At the half way point of the 2018 season, McLaren have scored 48 points. Even if they score 0 points for the rest of 2018, they are doing better than they were before. If the current trend continues then they will score around 95-100 points, which is 3 times more than 2017.

Now, you can do as much mental gymnastics to try and justify your Honda defence as you want, but no matter how you measure it, the 2018 McLaren season is better than the 2017 McLaren season. I didn't say good, great, good enough, brilliant, championship winning legends. I said better. Which it is.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If the Renault engine is better why are Red Bull refusing it?

In case you hadn't noticed, Christian Horner and Renault had a little bit of a falling out. The nasty man said something mean about the poor little engine developer and toys went out of prams. That saga started almost a decade ago and has rumbled even through championship wins. Renault bringing back a works team and Red Bull not being able to compete for titles is the nail in the coffin.

If you're using one teams refusal to use the Renault engines as somehow proof that the Renault is not better than the Honda, then why are we not discussing the fact that no other team has picked up this supposedly pretty good Honda engine? Why is the Honda engine exclusive to teams that are stuck at the back of the grid? If the Honda isn't a problem, why is in the STR test bed, rather than the RBR works team?

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Except next season Red Bull - Honda will almost certainly outscore both Renault-Renault and McLaren-Renault...

lol, the Honda engine is obviously so good that we have to make up predictions about future performance rather than discuss current performance.

Look, let's be realistic here. There is nothing I wanted more than the Honda engine to come in and be awesome. I was looking forward to some McLaren Honda Alonso getting involved with the Hamiltons and Vettels at the front. I absolutely love the NSX GT3 car, and I support the Honda Team Dynamics crew in BTCC. I'd LOVE Honda to do well. But I'm not prepared to lie about how well they have (not) done. I'm not going to sit and make false quotes about what other forum members have said to try and defend my beloved Honda. That's just being ridiclous.

If anyone here is an IMSA fan, then being a Honda fan with F1 engines is like being a Mazda Prototype fan. You have to be realistic about things. Because in both cases, the engines are going to fail and it's going to be a disaster. Pretending it isn't won't help anything.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Swe have to make up predictions about future performance rather than discuss current performance.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

the engines are going to fail and it's going to be a disaster. Pretending it isn't won't help anything.

Aha

The current performance of the Honda PU is fine. It's an ongoing project of incremental improvements, something that McLaren were unable to accept and which all worked out for the better as Red Bull is a much higher quality team to be paired with, and also my favourite F1 team since the Jaguar days.

Toro Rosso have an aero problem which is costing them some vital tenths in the tight midfield.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If the Honda isn't a problem, why is in the STR test bed, rather than the RBR works team?

That's easy -- because McLaren refused to let Honda supply RBR in 2017. Else they would have likely been Honda powered for quite some time.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Aha

The current performance of the Honda PU is fine. It's an ongoing project of incremental improvements, something that McLaren were unable to accept and which all worked out for the better as Red Bull is a much higher quality team to be paired with, and also my favourite F1 team since the Jaguar days.

Toro Rosso have an aero problem which is costing them some vital tenths in the tight midfield.

So when you change the engine, the McLaren gets better, the Toro Rosso gets worse, and that's an aerodynamic issue.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

That's easy -- because McLaren refused to let Honda supply RBR in 2017. Else they would have likely been Honda powered for quite some time.

Ah right. 2017. My computer clock says 2018. I must've missed the bit where McLaren Renault won't allow RBR to use the Honda in 2018 as well. But they're apparently fine with STR. But easy, right?

But don't worry, I'm sure the Honda is fine. This guy told me it's all aerodynamics.



I'm sure it's brilliant. Incremental improvements all the time. From last to not quite to last, to not as last as it was before, to still last. It's so good now that everyone wants a Honda after 4 years of improvements.

[F1Guy]

The Renault vs Red Bull fight continued in Germany. Ricciardo the ultimate loser.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...-call-1063760/


As much as I hate to see Ricciardo (possibly) in a Honda powered car, I'm kinda glad this ***** fight is coming to an end. Gone on for far too long.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Except next season Red Bull - Honda will almost certainly outscore both Renault-Renault and McLaren-Renault...

That's not a given and it's far too early to be making predictions like that. As it is, the Honda engine hasn't been bolted on to the RB chassis.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's so good now that everyone wants a Honda after 4 years of improvements.

Well, the finest constructor in F1 wants it! That's quite an endorsement.

I note that Akrapovic exhaust systems (while independent) are often fitted to Renault RS cars -- the username wouldn't be biased on that front would it?

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's not a given and it's far too early to be making predictions like that.

I'd merrily bet you a Renault RS Trophy metal gearknob in exchange for a Mugen Honda K20 oil cap.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I'd merrily bet you a Renault RS Trophy metal gearknob in exchange for a Mugen Honda K20 oil cap.

I don't have a Mugen Honda K20 oil cap in my possession but I see they are available on e-bay, so if you have said Renault RS Trophy metal gearknob, you are on.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I note that Akrapovic exhaust systems (while independent) are often fitted to Renault RS cars -- the username wouldn't be biased on that front would it?

Nah, I don't particularly like Renault cars. Ironically enough, I'd have a Honda over most Renaults. Akrapovic make a lot of bike parts, and I can't stand bikes either. I just like the avatar.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Except next season Red Bull - Honda will almost certainly outscore both Renault-Renault and McLaren-Renault...

I'd happy to bet you a Mugen K-series oil cap.

Forgot to answer this. I'd be more than willing to take that bet if you're serious and are willing to make some sort of a reminder in November 2019.

[BSchneiderFan]

I fear that, if I were a betting man (which I’m not), I’d put money on a winless 2019 for Red Bull. Which would be very hard luck for Ricciardo and Verstappen.

[Skam85]

I can actually see them dropping to fourth behind the Renault works team.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Skam85

I can actually see them dropping to fourth behind the Renault works team.

I think it all depends on whether RBR adopts a policy of working with, rather than demanding from, the Honda engineering team.
That also assumes that Honda has retained it's racing spirit and the work ethic that they have brought to past seasons of many types of motorsport.
STR performance in the last few races of this season will be indicative of progress.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

I think it all depends on whether RBR adopts a policy of working with, rather than demanding from, the Honda engineering team.
That also assumes that Honda has retained it's racing spirit and the work ethic that they have brought to past seasons of many types of motorsport.
STR performance in the last few races of this season will be indicative of progress.

It's going to be down to whether Honda, since 2015, can actually deliver an engine that's competitive.

Honda still has it's racing spirit, being involved in motorsport outside of F1 but maybe that's where Honda should look, specifically Honda Performance Development?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

I think it all depends on whether RBR adopts a policy of working with, rather than demanding from, the Honda engineering team.
That also assumes that Honda has retained it's racing spirit and the work ethic that they have brought to past seasons of many types of motorsport.
STR performance in the last few races of this season will be indicative of progress.

I'm a big RBR fan (especially in the Vettel days), but historically RBR hasn't been very kind to engine suppliers - both in PR and engineering. But I think you're right, that the success of the RBR Honda combination will be largely down to RBRs attitude.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

STR performance in the last few races of this season will be indicative of progress.

I agree with the most of your post except the quoted part above. I'm sure I heard during the commentary of one of the recent races that STR and Honda have basically given up on this year's car and engine and are concentrating on next year.

If this is the case, while some new bits may appear on the STR, I don't know if their performance will be a true indication of how they are going.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by dsg

If this is the case, while some new bits may appear on the STR, I don't know if their performance will be a true indication of how they are going.

If, as I suspect, STR will be running the rest of the season as a test bed for Honda my thought is that they will not be worried about to avoiding penalties for the installation of updated components.
A lot of back of grid starts and not much in the way of points finishes, but if they are showing good straight line speed, reliability and drive ability it will give some idea of how they are progressing.

[Armco Bender]

Honda motor would now look quite attractive after qualifying.

[Skam85]

As long as every race in 2019 is wet

[Aysedasi]

The race wasn't wet today. Great drive by Gasly......

[S griffin]

Yes great drive by Gasly. Then again Hungary has never been a horsepower circuit