Do drivers get the F1 career they deserve?

[Super Tourer]

With all the recent debate on the various merits of Heidfeld and Webber, it got me thinking that do drivers get the careers 'they deserve'.

In other words, is how they perform in the junior series an expectation of what they will achieve in F1. BTW this is not a bash at any particular drivers, just an attempt to see what drivers could or should be able to achieve.

Some examples:

DC - his F1 career was almost a mirror image of his junior career - some great performances but not consistent enough to win the championship, he never won another series above junior FFord.

Hakkinen - great junior pedigree won British F3 and series below it. Once he got into his championship stride he became stronger.

JJ Lehto - great junior level CV but his crash in the Benetton pretty much signalled his demise in F1. So, effected by circumstance but been peerless in sportcars around the world.

JPM - F3000 and CART championships - CV bristling with race wins - on paper should/will be a WDC.

There are some examples, I'm sure you can all think of more. But to the question, does a driver get the F1 career he deserves, or are there simply too many variables out of there control?

[ensign14]

I remember seeing a list of the F1 drivers in about 1988 with the championships they had won. Every single one of them had a better CV than Nigel Mansell's, whose only title to then was the British Fusegear FF1600 title.

Current F1 is more divorced from junior formulae than ever before so they are of limited use; someone great at gearshifting and pressurizing others into missing gears is not going to get far in F1. But OTOH if he is a genuinely great driver he will show his talent in the new world of F1, given a fair shake.

What you can never tell - also from the past - is whether a driver can cope with the extra power and strength needed in F1; I always got the feeling that someone like Roberto Moreno was too slight to do so, so his natural speed never really showed. Then again when the lower formulae are naturally closer because of the lack of power a driver's skill may be blunted by minor variables having a disproportionate effect. Mansell and James Hunt are examples of drivers who saved their best to last...

Best you can say is there is a tendency for drivers who were dominant in lower formulae to do well in F1. There will always be counterexamples (Magnussen). But these days it is much more difficult - is Kovalainen better than Liuzzi? 10 years ago they would both have been in F3000 and we would have had more of a clue. Is Kiesa better than Toccacelo? The latter has a better F3000 record, but has never driven a playstation-type formula car.

[Super Tourer]

Some good points - indeed Magnuseen was a mystery - and no nobody was more mystified than JYS who had seen him at close quarters in F3 and below and felt he was the real deal - senna like indeed was his comparison.

Some say it was lack of application from Jan, who was so naturally quick he perhaps felt he didn't need to work at it.

Mansell was tenacious.

Of the coming people, I think Kovalainen is the brightest star, but at the critical point of his career as you say.

[Kicking-back]

Interesting topic this one.

We hear a lot about drivers who "deserved a chance in a top car" - but I tend to feel there are very few drivers who genuinely merited an opportunity with a front rank team and never got one.

[ensign14]

I think there are a good few to whom the evidence points - Geoff Lees, for one, F2 champ, Macao winner and 7th on his GP debut in a Tyrrell at very short notice. Never got a competitive drive but did well with what he had.

Also Derek Warwick, Gijs van Lennep and some others worked wonders at times; sometimes showing well in sportscars may be another clue.

One of the biggest wastes was Jean-Pierre Jarier, he had the most dominant F2 season ever at the time, was of a comparable pace to Tom Pryce (maybe even quicker), and when given his one shot in a Lotus obliterated the field. Yet no-one thought to give him a second chance. Too inconsistent?

[Kirk]

Isn't the real problem that there are so few "top seats" in F1? Not enough to go around for the late bloomers unfortunately, unless fate is on their side. For example Nick is quite fortunate to have this opportunity that only came about because of Buttongate. He may have only the one year to show his stuff. It's often a cr@pshoot unless you are head and shoulders above your competition at a young age.

[Kicking-back]

But isn't getting yourself into a good drive as much part of being a "great" driver as what you actually do when you get there?

[Tweed]

Yes, I think it is. You can't just sit back and hope things turn out in your favour. The truly great drivers have all had to be ruthless.

[Aysedasi]

Of all the guys I watched in the junior formulae, J.J. was the one who disappointed me most. I remember sitting out at the complex at Thruxton way back when, watching him chuck a FF2000 through. Just sensational to watch. He seemed to do most things right before and after F1.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with your view though K-b. There will always be guys with money who get there a lot more easily (just as there will always be guys with money who don't deserve to be on the same circuit as some others). I think the truly great drivers do need to be lacking a substantial amount of "Ruth" though - so as to be able to grasp the chances with both hands and be ready to psychologically destgroy any other driver who threatens to take it away.......

[Tweed]

Both Alesi and Hakkinen (to a lesser extent) suffered in F1 because of their loyalty you could say, although Jean was set on driving for Ferrari. They are both F1 careers that deserved more I think, Alesi because he should have won a WDC and Hakkinen because he should have been winning in the mid-nineties and have more than 2 WDCs to his name.

[ASCII Man]

Jacky Ickx always had the tendency to pop up at the right team at the wrong time...
He could've been a multiple WDC if luck went his way a bit more than it actually did...

[Rich R]

because a lot of championships aside from f1 are so fractured nowadays it is hard to tell how good a driver is, there isn't a strong indycar championship, no world sportscars, several f3000 type championships, etc. a decent driver in a very good car can look like a world beater if he doesn't have the competition, and some good competitors can avoid racing each other in other series right up until they get to formula 1, and only then do we get the chance to see how good some drivers actually are.

[BootsOntheSide]

Mansell had no money in junior championships, and always struggled to get a drive. He was lucky that Colin Chapman (and later Frank Williams and Enzo Ferrari) spotted the spark of talent that could've easily been ignored. When he got his first test, few believed he was good enough, but he certainly doesn't need ot prove himself to anyone now.

Overall I don't think career results neccessarily reflect talent. A lot of 'sure things' have failed to succeed in recent years - Magnussen, Zanardi and Rosset are perhaps the major ones. It's hard to tell which factors come into effect - sometimes a particular era's cars simply don't suit a driver, or a lack of testing or diffcult car, or perhaps a nasty confidence-shaking crash causes them to lose motivation (this arguably happened to Lehto and McNish at different times).

[Aysedasi]

Rosset?

[Kicking-back]

Rosset was an F3000 runner up and won several races - but he was never touted as a "sure thing".

[marcus]

just about every F3000 champion really.

Ivan Capelli - showed glimpses but went to ferrari at the wrong time and ended his career.
Stefano Modena - same thing really but to me seemed not motivated

Erik Comas - looked sensational in junior classes , did bugger all in F1

Christian Fittipaldi - what a waste of a career that guy has had (not just F1)

Olivier panis - was looking fantastic in F1 up until canada 97 and it all seemd to go downhill after his accident

there are tonnes and tonnes of them i guess , did they get the career they deserved ???

probably but some could have been much greater , but they were there they did and more than likely have a very healthy bank account out of it

[minirda]

Mika Salo and Jan Magnussen were very talented, at capable for a long stay in F1, even in top seats. Both didn't managed to do so. Nick Heidfeld was very close to the end of his f1 career after Sauber and look where he is now? That's formula one these days.

[Steve Wilkinson]

If pure talent was the yardstick then the answer is NO!

Just two examples:

a) Geoff Lees - highly talented, dedicated, VERY unlucky not to get a good F1 drive.

b) Nigel Mansell - no great shakes in the lower formula, impresses Chapman in a one off test and bingo a career greater than his talents deserved.

So there we have it two Birmingham drivers one talented, the other extremely lucky!

[BSchneiderFan]

I agree with Ayse, J.J. Lehto is the biggest mystery. So quick before F1, and blindingly fast in sportscars now, but breaking his neck really screwed his F1 chances. Mind you, I'd point to Allan McNish too; should have got a drive any time during the 1990s, and when he did finally get a shot, it was in Toyota's first year and he was fired (in my view unjustly). Yet he can pedal a car as well as anyone.

[ASCII Man]

I think Esteban Tuero was a very good racer, putting that Minardi where it didn't really belong at more than one occasion during the '98 season,... if only he hadn't disappeared so suddenly before the '99 season...
Although he was pretty young when he got into F1... just 18 if I remember correctly...

Pre-F1:
1995    Italian Formula 2000, 1st overall in an RC Motorsport Dallara 392 Volkswagen.
1996	Italian F3, 13th overall, 16 points in a Coloni Dallara 396 Alfa Romeo.
1997	    Formula Nippon, =16th overall, 1 point in a Team Le Mans Reynard 97D Mugen.

Not that overly impressive by the looks of it, just Italian F2000 title to his name...
Although that's better than most drivers.....

[Dog Faced Boy]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

So there we have it two Birmingham drivers one talented, the other extremely lucky!

Grrrrrrrrrr!!

[RWC]

A facinating topic!

It's obvious that some who showed great tallent before f1 would fail when they make the final step up.It can be a mystery sometimes but one expects this to happen on occasion

But why do some drivers -who otherwise show no special tallent in lower formulae-suddenly come alive in f1?!
Michael shumacher sort of fits this description (ok,not the best example but most did think frentzen better in sportscars).

Nigel mansell definitely is a great example of this!

Mark Webber shows these kind of traits too.No serious tallent is shown in lower classes (he was beaten by zonta to the le mans title) but right on the limit in an f1 car

[JnrJnr]

I agree with the theory that there are too few top seats to allow everyone to showcase their true ability. For me it all depends on when they arrive on the F1 scene, and where there management places them to some extent, that will determine the rest of their career.

Once those initial contracts are signed and in place for a couple years, you may simply not be free to move in the direction you want...

Also in the junior formulas you can pretty much drive for who ever you want providing you have the right budget - allowing you to excel. This would mean that some even great a potential f1 champions dont make it out of say fford etc because of limited funds not allowing them to drive for the teams that are able to give them the equipment they need to win, and therefore never even get as far as having a disappointing f1 career.

[Das]

Just to be a little controversial - i think Webber's grossly over -rated and I'm an Aussie.
Does anyone expect him to really be a contender or will he just spin out the Williams and occasionally come in 6th or 7th ?

[Skam85]

I'm not even going to dignify that with a witty comeback.

back on topic, some drivers have been quite unlucky (injuries, wrong team at the wrong time, circumstance), others have wasted their opportunity (complacency, laziness).

UNLUCKY-
Bernoldi
Panis
Lehto
Wendlinger
Tuero
Pantano
McNish
Mazzacane


WASTED-
Magnussen
Bruni
Pizzonia
da Matta
C Fittipaldi
Michael Andretti
Vertsappen
Burti
de la Rosa
Zanardi

Any more?