Should Targa Tasmania be scrapped? Debate rages again after another race tragedy

[mite5255]

Views on this article https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-...eath/101021692

[Casper]

Good arguments could be put up for both sides of the debate but then we have events such as the Isle of Man TT where fatalities are almost accepted as routine. In the end it will come down to the political climate in Tasmania and how much they are prepared to stomach when the criticism gets really wound up. It is an interesting observation that conventional rallies don't seem to have fatalities or at least not any that I am aware of though I don't follow the sport these days even if it was my first love when I was younger.

[gravin]

Originally Posted by Casper

Good arguments could be put up for both sides of the debate but then we have events such as the Isle of Man TT where fatalities are almost accepted as routine. In the end it will come down to the political climate in Tasmania and how much they are prepared to stomach when the criticism gets really wound up. It is an interesting observation that conventional rallies don't seem to have fatalities or at least not any that I am aware of though I don't follow the sport these days even if it was my first love when I was younger.

This may be the real solution - make it a proper tarmac rally + touring event.
Car and drivers / navigators (licenced) to spec as appropriate.

[mite5255]

Originally Posted by gravin

This may be the real solution - make it a proper tarmac rally + touring event.
Car and drivers / navigators (licenced) to spec as appropriate.

What is the difference between a tarmac rally and touring event

[GreenMachine]

A different report I read said that the driver had been a regular competitor (FWTW), so lack of experience wouldn't seem to be a major contributor. The photo there showed the car on its roof, apparently flattened - however that could be misleading.

Nevertheless, I would have thought the question of cages would be central to the future shape of the event. That would highly controversial for the 'classic' sections of the event. Though it should be noted that a cage did not save Peter Brock.

Friend of mine has competed in the touring side, no overtaking, follow an official car which sets the speed of the group, and keep to the speed limit. Having driven those roads, sometimes at highly illegal speeds, I can sympathise with the 'press on' mentality, especially in the environment of a formal competitive event and the pressures that can build in competitors. Add the situation shown in the ABC photo, wet roads slippery with euc oil, and ... you get these things happening, sometimes with serious results.

[Casper]

Eucalyptus oil on the road is a real hazard or a joy to be had depending on the circumstances of encountering it. Many years ago I was at Mansfield (IIRC) waiting for a rally to start and someone discovered a length of road that had eucalyptus oil on it and everyone had a bundle of fun practising spins but encounter it without warning and all you can do is wait for the impact to happen unless you are extremely lucky.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Casper

Eucalyptus oil on the road is a real hazard or a joy to be had depending on the circumstances of encountering it. Many years ago I was at Mansfield (IIRC) waiting for a rally to start and someone discovered a length of road that had eucalyptus oil on it and everyone had a bundle of fun practising spins but encounter it without warning and all you can do is wait for the impact to happen unless you are extremely lucky.

A friend of mine arcs up about roadside trees and in particular, overhanging "widow-maker" branches...I tend to agree, but his requirement for about 50 metres of cleared land either side of roads, is probably economically and politically unachievable! As long as you have people operating vehicles, there will be accidents and deaths. Autonomous vehicles could be WORSE if introduced too early!

https://www.examiner.com.au/story/75...ities-in-2022/

[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

A friend of mine arcs up about roadside trees and in particular, overhanging "widow-maker" branches...I tend to agree, but his requirement for about 50 metres of cleared land either side of roads, is probably economically and politically unachievable! As long as you have people operating vehicles, there will be accidents and deaths.

Aint gunna happen.

I have had a professional involvement in funding roads. Widening a rural road within a road reserve should be a 'no problem' upgrade, but the road reserve is seen as a wildlife refuge, and a corridor for the furry things to move from place to place.

As a result some widening doesn't happen, and/or happens more slowly and more expensively, and/or happens to a more limited extent.

In the city it might involve some or all of the above, with added noise walls ...

[GreenMachine]

This topic reminds me of the response of a very experienced Prodsports driver of my acquaintance, who did one back in the early days.

The gist was that he thought the drivers were all mad, he was scared sh!tless trying to keep up, and he was never going to go back (and as far as I am aware he never did go back).

[Casper]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

This topic reminds me of the response of a very experienced Prodsports driver of my acquaintance, who did one back in the early days.

The gist was that he thought the drivers were all mad, he was scared sh!tless trying to keep up, and he was never going to go back (and as far as I am aware he never did go back).

I can understand a track only driver having that reaction but drivers who are used to rallying such as Jim Richards did not have too many issues with the event at all and he was a driver who switched between track and the Targa with no problems.

[GreenMachine]

True Casper, I wasn't doing more that relate an anecdote about the perception of risk, and the fact that the realisation of risks seems to have accelerated in recent times makes that anecdote noteworthy.

It may be that drivers of the calibre of Richards can manage that risk better than others.

The latest incident suggests that the last review did not go far enough - it certainly needs revisiting in the light of the circumstances of the latest fatality.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Casper

I can understand a track only driver having that reaction but drivers who are used to rallying such as Jim Richards did not have too many issues with the event at all and he was a driver who switched between track and the Targa with no problems.

I remember listening to Jim at a talk years ago where he recounted a moment on a Targa Tassie stage where he realised he was going well over 200, and all of a sudden the trees seemed very close to the road. He backed off, down to 170ish and continued on for a little bit before realising that a crash at that speed would still be fatal, and that he was losing time by going slowly. So he got back on it and tried not to think of the consequences.

[bathurst77]

All Targa tarmac rallies suspended

A decision has been reached by Motorsport Australia’s board to suspend all Targa tarmac rallies, effective immediately.


More to come.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

All Targa tarmac rallies suspended

A decision has been reached by Motorsport Australia’s board to suspend all Targa tarmac rallies, effective immediately.


More to come.

Wow. Not surprised in some ways - apart from the heartache of competitors being hurt or killed, the undoubtedly higher insurance premiums driven by tarmac rally cover are going to flow through to everyone in the sport.

At some time in that situation, it makes sense to completely stop and do a full review and consideration of how they should be run, if they are run at all.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

It may be that drivers of the calibre of Richards can manage that risk better than others.

Yes but even the undeniably skilled driver that was Brock was taken

Sometimes driving abillity is not enough when the cars and the roads arent designed for super high speeds.

[one five five]

Presumably some Targa events may seek AASA sanctioning going forward?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by one five five

Presumably some Targa events may seek AASA sanctioning going forward?

AASA might regret that if they tried it. I expect the Tasmanian event ran out of political will power from the state government and and Motorsport Australia nee CAMS have a history of knee jerk reactions in relation to Rally style events and that is understandable when fatalities occur and headlines are written. When rallies were very popular within the car clubs of NSW CAMS decided to ban them and about three thousand people turned up to the meeting at the ARDC clubrooms in Norton Street Leichardt and caused the street to be closed. I doubt we will ever see that again but it was a fun night.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by one five five

Presumably some Targa events may seek AASA sanctioning going forward?

They may well do. Think that from memory AASA sanctioned Mt Buller Sprint and Classic Adelaide road rally previously, don't know if they still sanction any, or rallying at all.

Don't think that it'd work for Tasmania though, as I think that Motorsport Australia is part of the promoter agreement (again based on an admittedly cloudy memory).

Of course, Motorsport Australia has not said that it won't sanction such events in the future (despite mainstream media over-reaction) but have instead said that sanctioning such events has been suspended whilst a review is conducted (don't know how long that'll take).

Have to say that with 4 deaths in two years they had to do something like that, simply had to.

[GreenMachine]

I have a memory AASA sanctioned TT quite some while back.

Agree, they had to do something. Given the terrain, big accidents are a given in the TT. After last year's enquiry, this again, tells me that the event may not be salvageable in its current form.

So what can prevent the deaths? And what has brought about the spate of deaths? Has there been some regulatory changes which have encouraged more risk taking? What changes were implemented from the review after last year's accidents? Why did they not prevent this year's fatal accident? Questions for MA and TasGov to ponder. But I won't be surprised if TT has been run for the last time.

[gts300]

Australian Tarmac Rally run a number of events in Victoria under AASA sanction. They are running the Snowy River Sprint this weekend. (aside, you may have seen their signs trackside at Winton this weekend).

In the past few days I have seen a comment from the organisers of Targa West who have been caught by the MA ban for an event on June 11th that they had attempted to obtain AASA sanction but in light of the MA ban those insurers were not in a position to cover the event. (unable to find any detail now, but with the Targa West organisers working on te ARC event this weekend more detail may not be forthcoming until later in the week.)

Targa Tasmania had implemented all of the recommendations of last years MA Investigatory Tribunal, I wonder if that tribunal had the right input and if it answered the wrong questions.

I'm sure we are long off hearing the outcomes of this latest incident/event cancellation. Both MA and TT are doing themselves no favours by keeping their competitor base in the dark at the moment.

[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by gts300

Both MA and TT are doing themselves no favours by keeping their competitor base in the dark at the moment.

If there is nothing to be said (yet), they can't make stuff up.

I think you are seriously underestimating the sporting and political implications of the latest fatality, coming at the earliest opportunity after a major investigation of previous fatalities and the implementation of the ensuing recommendations. It gives the impression that event is unsuitable for that environment, and/or that Australian motorsport is incapable of running safe targa style events there.

I'm sure that MA and the organisers will speak up when there is something to be said, in the meantime take a chill pill, and learn to exercise patience.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Have to say that with 4 deaths in two years they had to do something like that, simply had to.

Deaths in rallying is not a new thing, a blanket ban on tarmac rallies is ridiculous. Most definitely another investigation should happen, but blanket bans sends the wrong message and goes against motorsports “the show must go on” history.

Rallying in general has a threatened future going by the official reaction to this.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by one five five

Deaths in rallying is not a new thing, a blanket ban on tarmac rallies is ridiculous. Most definitely another investigation should happen, but blanket bans sends the wrong message and goes against motorsports “the show must go on” history.

Rallying in general has a threatened future going by the official reaction to this.

There is of course no blanket ban - merely suspension whilst investigation / review is held - nothing has been banned.

Rallying in general has had a threatened future for decades and these days is run in far more restricted and controlled situations than it was in the past - doesn't mean that rallying (including targa style events) won't exist but they way they are run and the roads used may change.

[GreenMachine]

It will be interesting to see what follows from the TT this year, is it five or six deaths, the latest a father and son in a sidecar combination.

[Casper]

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