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Old 23 Aug 2010, 15:15 (Ref:2748995)   #1
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Max on team orders scandal : Ferrari need more of ze punishment!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86074

He's coy on what he wants the additional punishment to be (answers on a postcard please) but he wants something more. The question is what will the WMSC do ...
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Old 23 Aug 2010, 15:27 (Ref:2748999)   #2
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I bet he wants a spanking.
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Old 23 Aug 2010, 16:19 (Ref:2749027)   #3
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i didn't see any mention of it in La Gazzetta dello Sport, but this site:

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsp...ory/26271.html

is reporting that according to La Gazzetta, Ferrari may be thinking of civil action against the FIA if found guilty (or dislike the punishment).

its probably just an unsubstantiated rumour or maybe even Ferrari posturing, however if it does happen is this the end of the FIA and F1? regardless if the case has merit or not, if sports teams start suing their governing body total collapse cannot be far off.

anyways its been too long between races and the hysteria is starting to get to me. of course this isn't the end but this Ferrari vs FIA battle has been brewing for sometime and i fear that Luca has been waiting for an opportunity like this to come along.
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Old 23 Aug 2010, 16:37 (Ref:2749047)   #4
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I'm trying to decide if Max's intervention makes Ferrari more or less likely to receive additional punishment. Either way, I think he should butt out!
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Old 23 Aug 2010, 17:42 (Ref:2749086)   #5
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butt out!
Interesting turn of phrase while talking about mad max's opinions on punishment
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Old 23 Aug 2010, 18:20 (Ref:2749108)   #6
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I bet he wants a spanking.
But wouldn't he rather consider NO spanking to be a punishment?
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Old 23 Aug 2010, 18:44 (Ref:2749126)   #7
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I can see the mods having to lock this thread soon (sadly) - it is after all a family friendly forum
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Old 23 Aug 2010, 18:46 (Ref:2749127)   #8
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But wouldn't he rather consider NO spanking to be a punishment?
Ofcourse, he would.

Naughty people need naughty spanking, according to those kind of folks.
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Old 23 Aug 2010, 20:08 (Ref:2749163)   #9
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Unfortunately, when Max left FIA HQ on his last day as president, he forgot to leave his mouth behind.
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Old 23 Aug 2010, 22:16 (Ref:2749226)   #10
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i didn't see any mention of it in La Gazzetta dello Sport, but this site:

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsp...ory/26271.html

is reporting that according to La Gazzetta, Ferrari may be thinking of civil action against the FIA if found guilty (or dislike the punishment).

its probably just an unsubstantiated rumour or maybe even Ferrari posturing, however if it does happen is this the end of the FIA and F1? regardless if the case has merit or not, if sports teams start suing their governing body total collapse cannot be far off.

anyways its been too long between races and the hysteria is starting to get to me. of course this isn't the end but this Ferrari vs FIA battle has been brewing for sometime and i fear that Luca has been waiting for an opportunity like this to come along.

thnks for the article Chillibowl.
I believe that Ferrari already have an action for unfair and prejudicial action against the FIA, any further sanctions should just reinforce their case.
There have been so many cases of team orders that the fuss just beggars belief!

Max is nobody now, thankfully, so why is anyone interested in his opinion?
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 01:50 (Ref:2749280)   #11
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Cause he once was a somebody, and hey its got us reading the articles and watching the ads. As a former English Prof once told me, Newspapers don't sell News, but they sure can sell ads.
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 08:20 (Ref:2749346)   #12
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thnks for the article Chillibowl.
I believe that Ferrari already have an action for unfair and prejudicial action against the FIA, any further sanctions should just reinforce their case.
There have been so many cases of team orders that the fuss just beggars belief!

Max is nobody now, thankfully, so why is anyone interested in his opinion?
My opinion only, but any team that sues the governing body should be kicked out. Ferrari should put up and shut up. They've been caught out, they need to take their medicine and stop believing they have a god given right to do what the hell they like. They also need to get someone who can implemented invisible team orders who has an IQ greater than my 4 year old, who would do a better job.
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 20:04 (Ref:2749673)   #13
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I believe that Ferrari already have an action for unfair and prejudicial action against the FIA, any further sanctions should just reinforce their case.
i think its terrible that it has gotten this far. on one hand we have a team which is in many ways bigger (or thinks it) than the sport and on the other a governing body that has no moral (and maybe even no legal) authority to hand out fines or punishments.

so for me the question becomes what authority does the FIA actually hold over the teams. Under Max, right or wrong, he made Mclaren accept their huge fine. insert your own feelings about spygate here but does anyone think Mclaren were in the wrong to the tune of 100mill? perhaps this fine could have been overturned or significantly reduced in a civil court, but Mclaren accepted the FIA's decision.

flash forward a couple of years to Ferrari's cheating with the use of team orders. so another case of "technically cheating" but something that everyone does. Ferrari have already received one fine for it but now stand to receive additional penalties.

granted these are very different situations but after how Mclaren got railroaded (while another team cheated and got nothing) i dont know if i could blame Ferrari for going outside the FIA structure. afterall it worked for Flav
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 20:53 (Ref:2749704)   #14
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McLaren never paid their 100m fine, though.
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 21:09 (Ref:2749709)   #15
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as in never paid it or it was deducted against prize money?
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 21:12 (Ref:2749710)   #16
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McLaren never paid their 100m fine, though.
Is that it, nothing more to add? Context? A link? Or does it work best as a throw away one liner?
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 22:20 (Ref:2749730)   #17
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McLaren never paid their 100m fine, though.
How did they avoid payment?

If the FIA enforced its laws impartially they may have moral authority.
Legal authority would likewise be enforceable if they had not ignored team orders prior to this event.

There is also a little matter of double jeopardy as the stewards have already fined Ferrari and Ferrari has accepted the penaltly for the infraction. This is now the FIA double dipping for the same offence.
Sorry its the FIA that is running an illegal witch hunt.
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 22:45 (Ref:2749737)   #18
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Oh dear god I though this thread would have a link to a certain Sniff Petrol article that has been posted recently...
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 23:02 (Ref:2749740)   #19
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Oh dear god I though this thread would have a link to a certain Sniff Petrol article that has been posted recently...
Well link away then.
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Old 24 Aug 2010, 23:54 (Ref:2749752)   #20
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I bet he wants a spanking.
What a fine idea, I am sure you are right...But Max we don't care what you think, so sod off now there's a good chap...
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Old 25 Aug 2010, 08:08 (Ref:2749815)   #21
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How did they avoid payment?

If the FIA enforced its laws impartially they may have moral authority.
Legal authority would likewise be enforceable if they had not ignored team orders prior to this event.

There is also a little matter of double jeopardy as the stewards have already fined Ferrari and Ferrari has accepted the penaltly for the infraction. This is now the FIA double dipping for the same offence.
Sorry its the FIA that is running an illegal witch hunt.
? Not double dipping. The stewards ruled against them for using team orders I beleive. Isn't the FIA more to do with bringing the sport in to disrepute? I would agree that Ferrair have done that - the comment here and elsewhere are evidence of that - and continue to do so. Get rid of them. F1 would be a better place without them (Ferrari) acting like this.
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Old 25 Aug 2010, 08:51 (Ref:2749834)   #22
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How did they avoid payment?

If the FIA enforced its laws impartially they may have moral authority.
Legal authority would likewise be enforceable if they had not ignored team orders prior to this event.

There is also a little matter of double jeopardy as the stewards have already fined Ferrari and Ferrari has accepted the penaltly for the infraction. This is now the FIA double dipping for the same offence.
Sorry its the FIA that is running an illegal witch hunt.
Two points:
1. It is not illegal.
2. It is in fact a part of the original penalty and that is created by the FIA judicial code, so it is not double dipping.

The FIA judicial code has limits of authority granted to the stewards of a meeting. In general the stewards cannot suspend a driver or a team. That privilege is granted to the World Motor Sport Council who will hear the case in September because the stewards of the meeting referred the case to them.

It is not a new charge but part of the original penalty. The maximum penalty that can be imposed by the stewards is $50,000USD so the $100,000 was the maximum that could be imposed on the team (2 cars).
This also indicates that both cars/drivers were implicated in the decision.

In addition matters of bringing the sport into disrepute can only be decided by the WMSC, hence the referral upstairs.
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Old 25 Aug 2010, 09:28 (Ref:2749847)   #23
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Thanks Teretonga.

My understanding was that the stewards can elect to refer a matter to the WMSC if it was beyond their jurisdiction.
In this case they chose to rule on the matter and penalise Ferrari for what they perceived to be team orders. Stewards decisions are not subject to appeal and the judgement and penalty was accepted by Ferrari.
I believe the penalty and the acceptance finalises the matter, (should also finalise bringing the sport into disrepute) it will be interesting to see what happens after the WMSC spins the random penalty and revenue collection wheel.

If the stewards had wanted the WMSC to deal with the matter they should have referred it directly and not got involved.
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Old 25 Aug 2010, 10:08 (Ref:2749865)   #24
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The team orders and bringing the sport in to disrepute are, rightly or wrongly, separate charges. The first is for the actual manouvre, the latter is for the bare-faced lying and huge negative publicity for the sport amongst other things after the incident.

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as in never paid it or it was deducted against prize money?
It was deducted against prize money, and always planned to be so.

Last edited by duke_toaster; 25 Aug 2010 at 10:15.
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Old 25 Aug 2010, 20:00 (Ref:2750166)   #25
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The team orders and bringing the sport in to disrepute are, rightly or wrongly, separate charges. The first is for the actual manouvre, the latter is for the bare-faced lying and huge negative publicity for the sport amongst other things after the incident.
The charge of bringing the sport into disrepute is not one made by the stewards but has popped up inthe media.
The stewards can refer the case to the FIA/WMSC if they feel that none of the penalties available to them is severe enough. That doesn't preclude them from issueing the maximum fine. It is not necessarily the end of the matter.

the FIA also has the power to conduct an independent inquiry into a matter if it so desires. because the stewards referred the matter to the WMSC they will have to hear it.
But any other action is at the discretion of the WMSC.
The aftermath duke toaster is referring to is what happened after the incident, but that is not what the stewards referred the matter for.
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