Proposed Changes to Flag Regs

[SteveR]

Originally Posted by JimW

Rats. The wrong decision promulgated at the worst possible time.

Jim

Obviously a good time to bury bad news. They've managed to get this nonsense in (and noticed), so what else have they sneaked in under the radar?

Cynical, moi?

[exflagman]

I wonder how many experienced flag marshals will decide to walk away from the sport as a result this load of 'used food' from the MSA.

[Gerryc]

Originally Posted by Rob Williams

there is nothing to discus, the new regulations are there in red and white, so we have to work with them.

what the MSA should do is in every bit of paper, newsletter, e-mail is tell the competitors about this change.

I will be putting this out in every CSCC newsletter and SRs, Finals, briefing notes I have for the rest of 2014.

also remind marshals in final instructions sent out with tickets as not all marshals will do training every year.

Sorry Rob but there WILL have to be discussions. Two thoughts spring to mind straight away:
Silverstone has Safety Car boards that need to be held - with 2 yellows to wave as well it will not be possible.
I know of at least two flag marshals who do not have full use of one arm - I don't see how they will cope?

I am sure that a number of other problems will occur to other people so discussions WILL be needed.

[numbersix]

It begs the question: If this option was up for consultation, whom did they consult?

[Greem]

Practicalities of multi-tasking aside, I think that:

1. The waved green is a good decision.
2. The yellows, whether single, double, waved or stationary will only work if they are acknowledged and acted upon by drivers. Perhaps the change will result in a bit more notice being taken - whether for a long time or not, if even a little bit of improved driving is the result, that's a good thing.

Now turning to the practicalities: I'd like to see an MSA trainer explain exactly how I'm supposed to do a double waved yellow, note car numbers, write a report *and* call in an incident at the same time. In my not-so-experienced opinion this is one specific time that "do your best" is simply not good enough.

I'm off to practice waving a flag with my nostrils...

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Gerryc

Silverstone has Safety Car boards that need to be held - with 2 yellows to wave as well it will not be possible.

From reading the newsletter there doesn't appear to be any change in the SC regulations to use the double yellow.

[exflagman]

You still need a double yellow at the site of the incident.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Greem

Now turning to the practicalities: I'd like to see an MSA trainer explain exactly how I'm supposed to do a double waved yellow, note car numbers, write a report *and* call in an incident at the same time. In my not-so-experienced opinion this is one specific time that "do your best" is simply not good enough.

From previous experience of being alone at events where "FIA" flag rules applied.

Single yellow, radio "my" incident then upgrade to the double.

If I'm on double I'll ignore throwing the red flag on the grounds that drivers have ample chance to see it before/after the incident and that by having double waved out by definition they should be prepared to stop.

Originally Posted by exflagman

You still need a double yellow at the site of the incident.

I'd prop the SC board against the fence where possible and go with the flags. As per above, if I'm alone the flags take priority over displaying any "frippery & baubles" such as boards that would be out at the preceding / subsequent posts.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

As per above, if I'm alone the flags take priority over displaying any "frippery & baubles" such as boards that would be out at the preceding / subsequent posts.

Doesn't help propagate the SC board/Red flag round the track.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Doesn't help propagate the SC board/Red flag round the track.

You're right it doesn't, but by definition these propagate in both directions so would cover the circuit.

Also, if totally on my own I would take the time to agree beforehand with adjacent posts to "play it if you see it at any post" for SC and Red flags if they see me on the double yellow.

A little bit of common sense goes a long way.

[deley]

Having sent a lengthy written submission to the MSA as part of the consultation I certainly don't see any merit in going over it all again now particularly as none of the comments I know were sent seem to have had any impact within the MSA ....

I am sure that more than a few issues will be faced as we adopt these new regulations

All I will say is



Dave

[Greem]

Actually, this pushes things back onto the MSA Stewards at meetings, doesn't it?

If at the site of a hypothetical incident the following are needed:

Double yellow
SC board
White and/or surface
Radio call
Form filling

...and there's only a single person, then it falls on the steward to decide whether or not the circuit's manning level is "adequate", doesn't it?

It's certainly going to make incident followups interesting. "Were double waved flags being displayed?"... "Had RC been informed?"... "Which cars were involved in the start of the incident?"... and so on, and so forth.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by Greem

If at the site of a hypothetical incident the following are needed:

Double yellow
SC board
White and/or surface
Radio call
Form filling

Well white/surface flag you can ignore, part of the definition of double waved yellow:
"[..]Great danger. Slow down considerably. Be prepared to suddenly change from the projected racing line, or take other evasive action including stopping if necessary.[..]"
"trumps" the white/surface flag.

[Postie]

After a quick phone call to the wife I'm now getting an extra arm for Christmas.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

If I'm on double I'll ignore throwing the red flag on the grounds that drivers have ample chance to see it before/after the incident and that by having double waved out by definition they should be prepared to stop.

Following the strict definition of the flag regulations; the red flag tells drivers to: "Immediately cease driving at racing speed and proceed slowly, without overtaking, and with maximum caution to pits or start line obeying marshal’s instructions, and being prepared to stop should the track be blocked." so waved yellows (single/double, etc.) would technically be unnecessary at the point of the incident as the red flag definition tells the drivers to use maximum caution.

Anyone brave enough to drop their yellows in preference for a red when there's marshals working trackside?

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

You're right it doesn't, but by definition these propagate in both directions so would cover the circuit.

Eventually - but what happens if there are two or more incidents round the circuit.

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Also, if totally on my own I would take the time to agree beforehand with adjacent posts to "play it if you see it at any post" for SC and Red flags if they see me on the double yellow.

I can think of several posts where you can only see the adjacent posts.

Originally Posted by MagnetON

A little bit of common sense goes a long way.

Except, it seems, at the MSA.

I am only trying to suggest some of the questions that flag trainers might need to have answers for at the 2014 training days.
Quite glad I'm no longer in that position. Good luck to those who running the sessions - might be tempted to go along to the Oulton Park training day just to see how the questions get answered.

[Stack]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Anyone brave enough to drop their yellows in preference for a red when there's marshals working trackside?

I think I would drop one of the waved yellows and substitute it with a waved red.

I think we are going to have to prioritize. Double waved yellows take precedent over anything else if marshals are working trackside (or in a gravel trap close to the edge of the track) Making notes and form filling will take second place. If there is minimal information on the reports the clerks will have to, rely on cctv/come for a chat/make something up (delete as applicable )

[veevet]

The 2014 Competitors Blue Book as currently posted on the MSA site does not appear to show any changes to flagging. Cannot find any mention of double waved yellows.

15.1.1.

At an incident where the track is obstructed, or
marshals are working at the trackside, the following
signals will be used:
(a) A STATIONARY Yellow at the post before a
WAVED Yellow.
(b) A waved Yellow flag at the post immediately
preceding the incident. NB: In very serious cases,
this flag may be supplemented by an additional
waved yellow flag at a preceding post. (The waved
yellow flag may also be supplemented by flashing
yellow warning lights).
(c) A stationary Green flag at the post immediately
after the incident.
(d) If the incident is well off the track and marshals
are not working at the trackside, the incident may
be indicated by a stationary yellow flag, followed
by a stationary green flag, or by a Hazard Area

board.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by veevet

The 2014 Competitors Blue Book as currently posted on the MSA site does not appear to show any changes to flagging. Cannot find any mention of double waved yellows.

As the newsletter is the most recent and specifies the changes take place on 1st January 2014 it obsoletes any previous publications.

[Gerryc]

Originally Posted by Greem

Practicalities of multi-tasking aside, I think that:

1. The waved green is a good decision.
2. The yellows, whether single, double, waved or stationary will only work if they are acknowledged and acted upon by drivers. Perhaps the change will result in a bit more notice being taken - whether for a long time or not, if even a little bit of improved driving is the result, that's a good thing.

Now turning to the practicalities: I'd like to see an MSA trainer explain exactly how I'm supposed to do a double waved yellow, note car numbers, write a report *and* call in an incident at the same time. In my not-so-experienced opinion this is one specific time that "do your best" is simply not good enough.

I'm off to practice waving a flag with my nostrils...

What he said!

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by veevet

The 2014 Competitors Blue Book as currently posted on the MSA site does not appear to show any changes to flagging. Cannot find any mention of double waved yellows.

15.1.1.

At an incident where the track is obstructed, or
marshals are working at the trackside, the following
signals will be used:
(a) A STATIONARY Yellow at the post before a
WAVED Yellow.
(b) A waved Yellow flag at the post immediately
preceding the incident. NB: In very serious cases,
this flag may be supplemented by an additional
waved yellow flag at a preceding post. (The waved
yellow flag may also be supplemented by flashing
yellow warning lights).
(c) A stationary Green flag at the post immediately
after the incident.
(d) If the incident is well off the track and marshals
are not working at the trackside, the incident may
be indicated by a stationary yellow flag, followed
by a stationary green flag, or by a Hazard Area

board.

Pg 4

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/n...ws_44_1213.pdf

[Slipstick]

Yep, just read it. The idiots have decided to ignore the marshals (and reality)...as usual.

I think that's me finished then. I enjoyed it while it lasted.

Steve

[PabloTeK]

Having discussed it, I feel that the regulations do have their advantages:

• Same as the FIA flag rules (sort of) - so only one set to teach! Maybe this is part of a transition to the full set.
• More visible - this is a fact as we all know a moving bit of rag is better than a stationary one, although one would hope drivers can see the flags anyway...

It will take a bit more planning performing the double-waved-yellow/phone-it-in dance , although in my experience posts either side will often realise this and answer the radio on behalf of the engaged post.

[deley]

Originally Posted by PabloTeK

• Same as the FIA flag rules (sort of) - so only one set to teach! Maybe this is part of a transition to the full set.

Sorry but there are still two sets of regs to teach and for people to be able to apply - fundamental differences exist between the use of yellows between the two sets of regs

Dave

[Paul Newns]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Good luck to those who running the sessions - might be tempted to go along to the Oulton Park training day just to see how the questions get answered.

What makes you think we'll have any answers? Seriously, if you have any specific points you may want to raise, PM me and I'll try to find out the answers beforehand and incorporate them into the training. Better to have time to think and research than make something up on the spot.