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Old 22 Dec 2016, 08:16 (Ref:3697801)   #1226
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Originally Posted by BLiTZ View Post
(I'm sure someone will shoot me down, but here goes...) Team Dynamics, after years campaigning the Civic EP3, Integra DC5 and Civic FN they eventually gained Honda UK's support to become Honda Racing.

*Pulls pin and runs for cover*
I'm not saying I disagree - if anyone has earned manufacturer support the Team Dynamics probably fit the bill more than anyone else.
I feel though that it is more of Honda spotting a marketing opportunity, with a team already committed to entering the BTCC with their marque.

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Nope..... I'd say 888 with the Vectra, and RML with SEAT. That in my eyes was the last time we had true manufacturer supported teams.
How did 888 'earn' their manufacturer support, when their debut was as a manufacturer having been formed specifically to run Vauxhall's motorsport?

IMO, 2008 was the last season of full works entries with SEAT's withdrawal signaling the end. After this, the manufacturer entries (including most recently PMR/Vauxhall and BMR Subaru) are all a marketing and sponsorship partnership rather than the manufacturer deciding to enter motorsport.

That is the way BTCC is nowadays, and it is more healthy as a result. Many other series are damaged by a limited number of manufacturer entries, who then hold a series to ransom when they are not getting the results they hoped for.
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 08:39 (Ref:3697805)   #1227
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
I'm not saying I disagree - if anyone has earned manufacturer support the Team Dynamics probably fit the bill more than anyone else.
I feel though that it is more of Honda spotting a marketing opportunity, with a team already committed to entering the BTCC with their marque.



How did 888 'earn' their manufacturer support, when their debut was as a manufacturer having been formed specifically to run Vauxhall's motorsport?

IMO, 2008 was the last season of full works entries with SEAT's withdrawal signaling the end. After this, the manufacturer entries (including most recently PMR/Vauxhall and BMR Subaru) are all a marketing and sponsorship partnership rather than the manufacturer deciding to enter motorsport.

That is the way BTCC is nowadays, and it is more healthy as a result. Many other series are damaged by a limited number of manufacturer entries, who then hold a series to ransom when they are not getting the results they hoped for.
Precisely! Ok I might have come at the subject the arse-end way round, but this is what I've been trying to say. The teams are 'Manufacturer backed/sponsored/business agreement' deals, not 'X Manufacturer wants to go racing so let's form a/partner with a team' operations any more.

Ok, shake hands and agree to disagree on the rest and let's get back on topic, I'm sure someone will be along with an 'I know something you don't know' rumour or a mediocre back marker will be making an announcement on social media next Thursday at 6 minutes past lunchtime live #Daddysgotdeeppockets!
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 08:47 (Ref:3697807)   #1228
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Back on topic...?
Will we see a Christmas surprise from anyone or do we thing announcements have now gone quiet until new year?

Team HARD have allegedly signed their 3rd driver, MG/888 are nearly sorted & Motorbase supposed to be all sorted but not announcing until ASI. Any guesses on who? The only rumour I've heard is Depper in the 3rd Motorbase.
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 08:55 (Ref:3697812)   #1229
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The only rumour I've heard is Depper in the 3rd Motorbase.
Well espares (of which Depper is a director) started sponsoring Motorbase towards the end of this year so was that him getting an early foot in the door perhaps?
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 09:19 (Ref:3697819)   #1230
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post

IMO, 2008 was the last season of full works entries with SEAT's withdrawal signaling the end. After this, the manufacturer entries (including most recently PMR/Vauxhall and BMR Subaru) are all a marketing and sponsorship partnership rather than the manufacturer deciding to enter motorsport.
I think you'll find nearly every motorsport activity by a "manufacturer" is actually a marketing funded partnership with a Team.

For example WSR ran Ford then Honda's programmes during SuperTouring... then ProDrive took over the Ford, still funded by Ford, but a full manufacturer effort.

More high profile ..... Team Joest ran the Audi WEC etc etc.

F1 and Some FIA WRC/WTCC teams are the anomaly here not the norm. Honda WTCC is actually run by JAS Motorsport. The Chevy's were RML. Need I go on ?
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 09:19 (Ref:3697820)   #1231
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RCIBRacing - Almost ready to announce our @DunlopBTCC plans for 2017 along with @autoaidbreakd #rcibinsuranceracing @itvmotorsport

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Not much to go on there, but clutching at straws to try and steer this topic back on track.
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 09:23 (Ref:3697823)   #1232
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Well espares (of which Depper is a director) started sponsoring Motorbase towards the end of this year so was that him getting an early foot in the door perhaps?
Good spot, that would fit with what I'd heard about Eurotech & that Smith wants a young charger alongside him. We saw what Lloyd did in that car, shame it appears he doesn't have the money to return.
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 09:23 (Ref:3697824)   #1233
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Oh and 888 were formed by Roland Dane and Andrew Jackson..... nothing to do with Vauxhall. They just happened to get the contract after RML and then formed a partnership going forward.
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 11:19 (Ref:3697853)   #1234
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So basically, since 1991, only Tarquini and Biela have actually won the title in cars which fit your very strict definition of "works", and since 2001 nobody has.
Actually that's not true, Biela's Audi was won by Richard Lloyd Racing. Incidentally that was the last season to have a 'true' works outfit, with the Peugeots, before being taken over by MSD in 97

TBH it's good to have manufacturer support, as it's hard to do it when you're an independent. OK teams like Motorbase and Cicely have managed to do well without any support, but there's more of a guaranteed budget when you're works backed
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 12:04 (Ref:3697865)   #1235
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Who ran the Proton Impians?
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 12:37 (Ref:3697871)   #1236
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...Need I go on ?
Please, no.
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 12:44 (Ref:3697873)   #1237
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Actually that's not true, Biela's Audi was won by Richard Lloyd Racing. Incidentally that was the last season to have a 'true' works outfit, with the Peugeots, before being taken over by MSD in 97

TBH it's good to have manufacturer support, as it's hard to do it when you're an independent. OK teams like Motorbase and Cicely have managed to do well without any support, but there's more of a guaranteed budget when you're works backed
I would assume it is easier to get sponsorship with manufacturer backing;

'Would you (Mr CEO) like to sponsor a Vauxhall backed team or some blokes from the midlands using Astras'
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 13:40 (Ref:3697880)   #1238
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Oh and 888 were formed by Roland Dane and Andrew Jackson..... nothing to do with Vauxhall. They just happened to get the contract after RML and then formed a partnership going forward.
Andrew Jackson? Who is he? Original 888 types were Dane Warwick Harrison and Gentry
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 13:41 (Ref:3697881)   #1239
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Who ran the Proton Impians?
A crowd up in Norfolk plus lots of Malaysia ns
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 14:08 (Ref:3697886)   #1240
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A crowd up in Norfolk plus lots of Malaysians
Were they from the factory in Kuala Lumpur? Was this then a real works team?
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 14:09 (Ref:3697887)   #1241
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Surely it's irrelevant what label is put on teams in the grand scheme of things. For decades teams have participated in all forms of saloon racing, and many of them have had varying degrees of support from manufacturers. Going back 50 years, teams like Willment and Broadspeed were viewed as being "works" teams because they had some sort of relationship with Ford and BMC, and in fact the Willment trucks used to have 'Racing with Ford' emblazoned on them, even though they were not a Ford team at that time.

On the other side of the coin, in the sixties and early seventies, there was at least one Anglia and an Escort that was prepared at Boreham, and was engineered at the circuits by Ford employees, but it was not an official Ford Team (and Ford was not being paid for their support) although they were entered sometimes by Ford dealers (principally Dagenham Motors) although there really wasn't any direct connection.

In the end, it doesn't matter a jot as long as the cars make it on the grid, and they don't embarrass themselves or others.
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 14:12 (Ref:3697889)   #1242
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Surely it's irrelevant what label is put on teams in the grand scheme of things. For decades teams have participated in all forms of saloon racing, and many of them have had varying degrees of support from manufacturers. Going back 50 years, teams like Willment and Broadspeed were viewed as being "works" teams because they had some sort of relationship with Ford and BMC, and in fact the Willment trucks used to have 'Racing with Ford' emblazoned on them, even though they were not a Ford team at that time.

On the other side of the coin, in the sixties and early seventies, there was at least one Anglia and an Escort that was prepared at Boreham, and was engineered at the circuits by Ford employees, but it was not an official Ford Team (and Ford was not being paid for their support) although they were entered sometimes by Ford dealers (principally Dagenham Motors) although there really wasn't any direct connection.

In the end, it doesn't matter a jot as long as the cars make it on the grid, and they don't embarrass themselves or others.
Exactly Mike, (sort of what I was trying to say...)
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 14:18 (Ref:3697890)   #1243
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Surely it's irrelevant what label is put on teams in the grand scheme of things. For decades teams have participated in all forms of saloon racing, and many of them have had varying degrees of support from manufacturers. Going back 50 years, teams like Willment and Broadspeed were viewed as being "works" teams because they had some sort of relationship with Ford and BMC, and in fact the Willment trucks used to have 'Racing with Ford' emblazoned on them, even though they were not a Ford team at that time.

On the other side of the coin, in the sixties and early seventies, there was at least one Anglia and an Escort that was prepared at Boreham, and was engineered at the circuits by Ford employees, but it was not an official Ford Team (and Ford was not being paid for their support) although they were entered sometimes by Ford dealers (principally Dagenham Motors) although there really wasn't any direct connection.

In the end, it doesn't matter a jot as long as the cars make it on the grid, and they don't embarrass themselves or others.
True dat.
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 15:02 (Ref:3697898)   #1244
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Ok well are we quite done?
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 15:04 (Ref:3697900)   #1245
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Ok well are we quite done?
No, let me finish, LET ME FINISH..
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 15:05 (Ref:3697902)   #1246
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Ok well are we quite done?
Ok, I'm finished!
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 15:11 (Ref:3697907)   #1247
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Ok well are we quite done?
Yeah, no issue, I came in at the end anyway with my two pence.

Re: 888 and Andrew Jackson....... he and Roland Dane were the original directors along with a management company. The rest joined a month later.
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 15:50 (Ref:3697920)   #1248
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so with 2016 under way and the rumours starting already I feel the need to start this thread. So far I have heard

Support our Paras are looking to return to the series
Richard Hawken is looking at a return to the series
Team Hard are planning something

The following questions over 2017 also exist:

Will Halfords Honda find a driver or even sell their 3rd car ?
Will Eurotech receive the ability to continue to run their 3rd car ?
Will BKR continue to run in the championship
Will the Subaru look like a championship winning car going into 2017 ?
Will we see Simon Belcher return alongside Austin at Handy
Will Andrew Jordan make a move to his 3rd team in 3 years
So it's not even Christmas yet, and we are starting to get answers.

SOP - that's a no.
Hawken - perhaps he's a driver being considered by some teams?
HARD - a 3-car VW entry.
Halfords - Simpson in the third car.
Eurotech - no, just 2-car entry.
BKR - No.
Subaru - probably.
Belcher - No, 1-car entry.
Jordan - Yes.


Perhaps a new list of questions is required already?
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 16:15 (Ref:3697929)   #1249
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So it's not even Christmas yet, and we are starting to get answers.

SOP - that's a no.
Hawken - perhaps he's a driver being considered by some teams?
HARD - a 3-car VW entry.
Halfords - Simpson in the third car.
Eurotech - no, just 2-car entry.
BKR - No.
Subaru - probably.
Belcher - No, 1-car entry.
Jordan - Yes.


Perhaps a new list of questions is required already?
Hawken is a no for this year as it stands. We were close, but not close enough. Hard very nearly wasn't VW at all...
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Old 22 Dec 2016, 16:24 (Ref:3697933)   #1250
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I never thought I'd say I missed 962 fan's rantings.......

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