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Old 22 Aug 2018, 22:57 (Ref:3845468)   #1
The SpeCTator
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SUPER TOURING CARS- what’s the future?

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Definitely in favour of dropping Super Tourers.
Poor entries prevail at most rounds with Brands scraping the race before the meeting started.
Maybe a couple of feature races a year would be appropriate.
Just 13 Super Tourers entered for Gold Cup. Time for action!
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 13:08 (Ref:3845546)   #2
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Just 13 Super Tourers entered for Gold Cup. Time for action!
HSCC has hoped to bolster the grids with older GA/G2 cars but these categories just don't seem to compliment each other for a full series.

Headline events maybe ok though where a big field is the norm.

Several popular series are struggling a bit though, mainly the ones where the hardware is the more expensive.

However, these things tend to be fluid and who knows, next year ST might get bigger grids again.
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 13:17 (Ref:3845548)   #3
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HSCC has hoped to bolster the grids with older GA/G2 cars but these categories just don't seem to compliment each other for a full series.

Headline events maybe ok though where a big field is the norm.

Several popular series are struggling a bit though, mainly the ones where the hardware is the more expensive.

However, these things tend to be fluid and who knows, next year ST might get bigger grids again.
The size of the entry for the Gold Cup race was mentioned as being the ‘make or break’ for a decision on next season. So not sure..... Yes, Gp2 and GpA cars in the main not a good mix with STs, especially the former- I tried it once! Mark Wright gave it a good go with his Mk2 RS1800, but not sure if he’s still campaigning his current RS500 with them?
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 14:03 (Ref:3845555)   #4
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The only RS500 entered in the Super Touring race according to the HSCC entry list is Paul Mensley's . In the HTCC race Mensley is joined by Max & Ian Goff and Mark Wright/Dave Coyne .
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 15:27 (Ref:3845569)   #5
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Sodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
There is some behind the scenes grumbling on one of the supertouring BookFace pages which a number of the drivers post on regarding the state of the series and organisation of it. I don't know all the exact gripes but one for sure was the hike in entry fees for this year. Another grumble was about the tyres (Hoosier) though allegedly they are moving back to Dunlop next year (if a series even happens?).
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 16:10 (Ref:3845577)   #6
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There is some behind the scenes grumbling on one of the supertouring BookFace pages which a number of the drivers post on regarding the state of the series and organisation of it. I don't know all the exact gripes but one for sure was the hike in entry fees for this year. Another grumble was about the tyres (Hoosier) though allegedly they are moving back to Dunlop next year (if a series even happens?).
Yes, Dunlop move likely if the series keeps going. The idea of trying to attract decent sized grids to a (very) small number of high profile meetings sounds sensible.
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 16:20 (Ref:3845580)   #7
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SUPER TOURING CARS- what’s the future?

I’ve taken relevant posts from the Classic thread so the subject can be further discussed here if anyone so desires.....
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 17:54 (Ref:3845593)   #8
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There is some behind the scenes grumbling on one of the supertouring BookFace pages which a number of the drivers post on regarding the state of the series and organisation of it. I don't know all the exact gripes but one for sure was the hike in entry fees for this year. Another grumble was about the tyres (Hoosier) though allegedly they are moving back to Dunlop next year (if a series even happens?).

The ST entry for Oulton is £40 more than the HTC entry. Price hike??
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 18:44 (Ref:3845603)   #9
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The ST entry for Oulton is £40 more than the HTC entry. Price hike??
I'm pretty sure your comment was tongue in cheek Robyn (hence the ROFL)

The HSCC is pretty fair in pricing its entry fees. Super Tourers (complex, very expensive cars which are mainly run by professional teams) pay £8.25 per minute of track time at Oulton. Historic FF2000 cars (Transit engine, moderately-priced, mainly run from a domestic garage) pay £8.27 per minute.

It will be interesting to see what the Super Tourer numbers are like at Knockhill, where the entry is free.
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 19:28 (Ref:3845605)   #10
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Enlightening regarding the relative costs, Alan. The Knockhill races have been and gone (4/5 Aug), and Malcolm Smith posted this- https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153094

Worth pointing out that the STCC didn’t start off as an HSCC Championship, and that the club only originally looked after the racing side. They took over the admin and incorporated it into their this ‘portfolio’ this year, at, I believe, the request of the STCC.

Full history of the STCC here- https://www.supertcc.com/history.html
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 19:43 (Ref:3845607)   #11
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Super Tourers (complex, very expensive cars which are mainly run by professional teams) pay £8.25 per minute of track time at Oulton. Historic FF2000 cars (Transit engine, moderately-priced, mainly run from a domestic garage) pay £8.27 per minute.

It will be interesting to see what the Super Tourer numbers are like at Knockhill, where the entry is free.
Actually many of them aren't run by professional teams, and those that are, aren't what you would call big teams with lots of staff. That said, they are certainly not a 'one man and a van' operation.

Knockhill has already been and gone, and the entry wasn't good. It was 2 weeks after the Silverstone Classic, and 3 weeks prior to Gold Cup, which is part of the problem. These aren't the sort of cars where you can just wipe with an oily rag and be ready for the next race. They need to be partly stripped and rebuilt, which isn't always possible in the timescales with limited resource. (I appreciate they aren't unique in that respect.)
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Old 24 Aug 2018, 09:30 (Ref:3845704)   #12
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I actually think we should open this out and ask what the future is for historic racing in the future, for (say) post year 2000 cars. The STs demonstrate how difficult/ expensive it is to run relatively recent cars and the technology is often perishable or kept close by manufacturers. The importance of aero in current cars also doesn't help.

Who can envisage running a "historic" F1 series or LMP Series in 10-20 years time for cars from the early part of the 21st Century?

Running cars from the feeder formulae/ series in the future will have a different issue - there are just too many "one make" formulae. Who wants to see a series for "historic GP2/3" or "World Series by Renault", or Clio Cup etc etc?
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Old 24 Aug 2018, 10:11 (Ref:3845712)   #13
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I actually think we should open this out and ask what the future is for historic racing in the future, for (say) post year 2000 cars. The STs demonstrate how difficult/ expensive it is to run relatively recent cars and the technology is often perishable or kept close by manufacturers. The importance of aero in current cars also doesn't help.

Who can envisage running a "historic" F1 series or LMP Series in 10-20 years time for cars from the early part of the 21st Century?

Running cars from the feeder formulae/ series in the future will have a different issue - there are just too many "one make" formulae. Who wants to see a series for "historic GP2/3" or "World Series by Renault", or Clio Cup etc etc?
I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head here Andy. The extra complication (and electronicification) of later racing cars is going to be a huge barrier to keeping them running, and especially keeping them running at an affordable level. Back in the day Super Touring Cars were either works run or at least very professionally run cars with a budget to match. Some of what was state of the art technology back then is maybe obsolete now. It's OK to have engine parts re-made (if you can afford it) but some of the electronics just cannot be reproduced nowadays.
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Old 24 Aug 2018, 10:33 (Ref:3845715)   #14
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I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head here Andy. The extra complication (and electronicification) of later racing cars is going to be a huge barrier to keeping them running, and especially keeping them running at an affordable level. Back in the day Super Touring Cars were either works run or at least very professionally run cars with a budget to match. Some of what was state of the art technology back then is maybe obsolete now. It's OK to have engine parts re-made (if you can afford it) but some of the electronics just cannot be reproduced nowadays.
I think I read somewhere that McLaren were buying up old lap tops of 1990s vintage, because they were the only ones with the ability to run the software and/ or the floppy discs to examine the electronics in the McLaren F1 road car!

I worry that I cant get front wings for my Audi Quattro; in the future, we will have racing cars sitting in museums that cant be started because the software is corrupt, the microchip has deteriorated and the hybrid system doesn't work.
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Old 24 Aug 2018, 13:29 (Ref:3845762)   #15
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Actually many of them aren't run by professional teams, and those that are, aren't what you would call big teams with lots of staff. That said, they are certainly not a 'one man and a van' operation.

Knockhill has already been and gone, and the entry wasn't good. It was 2 weeks after the Silverstone Classic, and 3 weeks prior to Gold Cup, which is part of the problem. These aren't the sort of cars where you can just wipe with an oily rag and be ready for the next race. They need to be partly stripped and rebuilt, which isn't always possible in the timescales with limited resource. (I appreciate they aren't unique in that respect.)

There were certainly more cars when the ST races were more of a one off than a series and I imagine some of the owners are very short of parts, I believe Cleland had to have some parts fabricated for his Vectra as there were none around - or none of use as some of the parts that do exists are over 25 years old.
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