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Old 16 Sep 2019, 10:38 (Ref:3928294)   #1
Casper
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Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Who is right, the fans or F1 Management

We have seen endless differing views on what F1 needs to do to make it better from the fan side and the last thing this thread needs is regurgitating all that stuff but I bet it happens before the first page is finished.

If the fans cannot agree and F1 management is currently going through a big exercise of making changes that they think is going to make the category better who is right the fans who can't agree or the management. The fans think the management are idiots and don't know what they are doing and those same fans also can't agree either as has been proven time and time again over many years.

I asked myself this question after watching this interview of Ross Brawn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcINLX139ak
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 10:59 (Ref:3928301)   #2
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Who is right, the fans or F1 Management
Both?

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Old 16 Sep 2019, 12:03 (Ref:3928310)   #3
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It's why I think it should be run by a dictator rather than a committee and the teams should have no say at all.

Nothing will ever please all the fans at the same time so it's pretty much impossible to put any weight behind their wishes. They asked for high deg tyres and then complained. They asked for 1 lap quali, then complained, then asked for it again etc etc.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 13:23 (Ref:3928327)   #4
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Longer answer from me...

Broadly speaking the fans offer "goals" such as "better racing" and "louder engines", or have specific complains that boil down to "it's not like it was X years ago". Some will offer solutions, but they are small in scope such as "smaller wings", etc. Occasionally you get some type of an attempt at a comprehensive solution such as Stefan Johansson published manifesto awhile back, but even those, while well meaning and sometimes with good ideas, in their entirety fail for some type of obvious reason that is not apparent to the author. I think this is the difficulty of one person trying to solve the problem. Sometimes they can't see why some of their ideas are dumb.

The "fans" also don't speak with a single voice and offer up conflicting goals, so agreement is a struggle. But there can be some level of critical mass agreement that is apparent such as the "better racing" one. While a number of us here think about how things might work financially, I think that most fans don't care one way or another. All they care about is the entertainment factor. Some may say they don't want "entertainment", but want "real racing". I think the irony that "real racing" is their personal form of "entertainment" is lost upon them. But to my point, fans tend to not think much about the business side of the sport. So they tend to not think big picture enough to really offer full solutions. We all know that running anything by committee is a death sentence. Or at least a large committee is a death sentence. "Fans" are a large committee.

With that all being said F1 Management has generally been hampered by trying to adjust the knobs that run the sport by gentle twists. A pinch more or less salt or pepper in the recipe, but the recipe is still pretty much the same. This current 2021 attempt seems more hopefully given it's the end of the current Concorde agreement and there is new ownership of the business. As mentioned above, a capable dictator is best. Short of that then a capable dictatorial committee is next best. We don't have either as clearly they can't (or will not) just operate without regards to the teams and particularly the manufactures, but it's probably as close to a dictatorship as we are likely to see.

I DO think F1 Management is trying to listen to the fans. But they have other voices to listen to as well. That is why I said "Both" above in my first post.

The video Casper linked in the first post is hopeful as Brawn mentioned the group who is examining the car performance is not disbanding once regulations are settled upon. That means they are cognizant to the fact that they are unlikely to get it 100% right. That ongoing tweaks will be needed. And that they are not sure what that will be until the see the on-track action in 2021. The same comment applies to not bringing in new teams until things stabilize. Again that speaks to ongoing tweaks and adjustments in the 2021+ timeframe

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Old 16 Sep 2019, 14:15 (Ref:3928334)   #5
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I tend to side against management in these things so specific to this question i identify with the drivers positions more....more competitive cars, fair playing field, viscerally more exciting, better aesthetic, more wheel to wheel, quality traditional venues with more fans in attendance.

Likewise drivers want things like FTA so their fans can watch. In part athletes monitize their careers by developing their fan bases/become more effective sponsorship tools and that requires greater distribution as well as a rules set which allows drivers to thrive.

We the fans are their customers.

FOM's customers are the venues, the TV networks, the teams/manus, and any other group looking to capitalize upon the sport via b2b deals.

Whose customer is always right then?

For me its the fans.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 17:47 (Ref:3928368)   #6
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I tend to side against management in these things so specific to this question i identify with the drivers positions more....more competitive cars, fair playing field, viscerally more exciting, better aesthetic, more wheel to wheel, quality traditional venues with more fans in attendance.

Likewise drivers want things like FTA so their fans can watch. In part athletes monitize their careers by developing their fan bases/become more effective sponsorship tools and that requires greater distribution as well as a rules set which allows drivers to thrive.

We the fans are their customers.
I would argue that in this case we are not the customers of the drivers. I think the drivers have a foot in two worlds. One is their own professional existence (i.e. Hamilton as a "brand") that exists outside of who the driver may drive for at any one moment. The other is being an active cog in the larger F1 machine. My opinion is that we are their customer in the first category, but not the second. And again, my opinion is that we are talking about the second category (which is that F1 is the product and not the driver).

When part of the larger F1 machine, I think they should be listened too by FOM, but to be honest, when I assign a value to their opinion, I put something such as the teams opinions much higher than those of the drivers.

Part of that is because the drivers (IMHO) tend to also have a relatively narrow perspective. And just like the fans, they speak of "goals" and not "solutions". To be honest, I don't see them bringing new or original ideas to the table and for the most part are just parroting things that most already agree are things most of us want. With that being said... that does mean they are mostly on the same page with many fans. Which is a good thing.

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FOM's customers are the venues, the TV networks, the teams/manus, and any other group looking to capitalize upon the sport via b2b deals.

Whose customer is always right then?

For me its the fans.
Sadly, as you mention, fans are once removed from FOM in that generally speaking our direct interactions are with the broadcasters or the venues (if attending in person) and conversely FOM deals with the same parties (not us). FOM does have some direct impact on us via things that they control that does target fans directly, (social media, fan experience at venues). But as you say it will be B2B, so while they will listen to fans, the will focus on their B2B for sure. However just like the drivers and fan, I expect there remains core "goals" that everyone (including those B2B partners) can agree upon such as "better racing" (or "improved product" in business speak). As I point out... we don't need goals, we need solutions. Goals are easy. Solutions hard.

I think an area that I fully expect will NOT be radically changed is the revenue model for FOM. They will likely continue to try to squeeze revenue from broadcasting, etc. So things like FTA or incentives to attend events (cheaper tickets) are probably a non-starter. Their goal is to not change how the revenue comes in, but to just increase revenue via a better product. That is probably the least "risky" solution (from their perspective) when it comes to their revenue plan. But also probably not a good long term or "growth of viewership" perspective.

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Old 16 Sep 2019, 19:04 (Ref:3928387)   #7
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I think the problem comes from F1 management trying to generate a profit from administering a sport.I have to agree with the principle that Ken Tyrrell and other team owners of the time were trying to apply when they concluded that Bernie had basically stolen the sport from them in return for doing the TV deals.Yet they could have had the whole of the profit generated,had they made the comparatively modest investment Bernie had suggested.There would have been a bit of wrangling about precise percentages,but no need to divert huge amounts of money to a media empire.


If the owners were also trying to sell space to sponsors, they would have been less keen on pay TV deals as these automatically reduce the audiences.They would also have every incentive to formulate rules that produced cars that the audience wanted to see.


In essence we are debating the old "Is F1 sport,engineering or entertainment?" question.
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Old 18 Sep 2019, 06:39 (Ref:3928625)   #8
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Old 18 Sep 2019, 07:17 (Ref:3928630)   #9
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I think the fans should be listened to, they have put up with enough. The problem is the rulemakers always seem to either go for a complicated option instead of the simple solution or come up with an answer to a question no one asked
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Old 18 Sep 2019, 10:17 (Ref:3928659)   #10
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Fans have a choice.

it really is that simple

I walked away fro watching F1 about halfway through the first year of the new turbo engines, I tend to only watch highlights or even only click on a news story now to find out what is going on.

I have access to SKY through a friend but rarely watch an F1 race live, and I know countless people who were captured in 07/08 and were left behind very quickly.

The sport is run by, watched by, sponsored by and ruled by, the rich. And that is about all I can offer as a reason why it all of a sudden made me cringe.
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Old 18 Sep 2019, 11:40 (Ref:3928673)   #11
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I think the fans should be listened to, they have put up with enough. The problem is the rulemakers always seem to either go for a complicated option instead of the simple solution or come up with an answer to a question no one asked
Nailed it!
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Old 18 Sep 2019, 13:43 (Ref:3928690)   #12
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instead of the simple solution
Simple solution?

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Old 18 Sep 2019, 17:47 (Ref:3928729)   #13
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I would argue that in this case we are not the customers of the drivers. I think the drivers have a foot in two worlds....
i can see it that way as well. taking this 'consumer' approach was more of a fragment of an idea on my part then something more well thought out. given more time and a more appropriate thread this is something i would like to discuss more. perhaps this off season!

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Part of that is because the drivers (IMHO) tend to also have a relatively narrow perspective. And just like the fans, they speak of "goals" and not "solutions". To be honest, I don't see them bringing new or original ideas to the table and for the most part are just parroting things that most already agree are things most of us want. With that being said... that does mean they are mostly on the same page with many fans. Which is a good thing.
goals vs solutions sounds right and indeed the drivers focus on the former and have a 'narrow perspective' on this (although i would probably describe it more affectionately as a 'singular vision' instead of 'narrow perspective')...but yes in many ways, i agree, the drivers are just parroting what the fans want.

in fairness though, in terms of saying the right things, conducting surveys, reacting to the desires of the fan base...well Liberty seem to be doing much of the same.

for sure they have released their wind tunnel tests which looks to be an actual solution and while i remain hopeful for a more equitable Concorde agreement, until they actually deliver on these 'solutions' they are very much doing just what the drivers are doing...parroting the fans and saying the right things.

ipso facto...the fans are right because everyone agrees with us!

but ultimately i agree that FOM are in a better position to deliver solutions so i remain hopeful about 2021.

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I think an area that I fully expect will NOT be radically changed is the revenue model for FOM. They will likely continue to try to squeeze revenue from broadcasting, etc. So things like FTA or incentives to attend events (cheaper tickets) are probably a non-starter. Their goal is to not change how the revenue comes in, but to just increase revenue via a better product. That is probably the least "risky" solution (from their perspective) when it comes to their revenue plan. But also probably not a good long term or "growth of viewership" perspective.
completely tangential and half baked thought here...as for their revenue model something 'disruptive' will need to happen to sports to change how FOM operate.

i wonder if we are seeing the early stages of it within the sphere of eSports (the world of competitive video games).

eSports is maybe the fastest growing segment of the sports entertainment market, it will be part of the Olympics sooner rather than later because that is where the future audience is, the game designers sell their product directly to their customers who in turn become the athletes/competitors and thus the beneficiaries of any prizes offered by the organization hosting the competition and the audience are essentially the future customers and competitors...potentially an exponentially expanding circle.

of course it remains to be seen if the eSports industry will grow large enough to be disruptive enough to challenge the traditional sporting leagues into modifying their revenue models.
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Old 18 Sep 2019, 19:02 (Ref:3928745)   #14
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completely tangential and half baked thought here...as for their revenue model something 'disruptive' will need to happen to sports to change how FOM operate.
While you go on to talk about eSports below, I wonder if the desire by many of us for free OTA access is on the wrong side of history. That the model they are using might be the right one (just poorly implemented)?

We can only know by looking back from some point in the future, but we could be in that inflection point of moving from traditional broadcast to something new. Clearly those who want that business model to work have been saying this for years. But the question is... when does it reach critical mass?

I am talking here about some type of broadband delivery solution vs. classics broadcast model. The focus now is on pure pay per view, but it doesn't have to be just that. I am a fan of some type of "freemium" model (which would address the lack of free OTA for the most part).

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i wonder if we are seeing the early stages of it within the sphere of eSports (the world of competitive video games).
For me, this speaks as much to the decline of car culture on a global scale. At some point F1 will be a niche sport with a much smaller audience. Question is... how far into the future will that happen? 20, 50, 100 years? My guess is that it is closer to the 50 mark.

All good stuff, but we are talking beyond the OP's question and back into "How to Fix F1?" territory IMHO.

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Old 19 Sep 2019, 10:22 (Ref:3928846)   #15
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I wonder if the Romans had a "How to Fix Chariot Racing" thread?.
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Old 19 Sep 2019, 11:54 (Ref:3928864)   #16
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I wonder if the Romans had a "How to Fix Chariot Racing" thread?.
What makes you think the Romans needed one, surely you can't be that old.
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Old 20 Sep 2019, 00:02 (Ref:3928995)   #17
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I wonder if the Romans had a "How to Fix Chariot Racing" thread?.
Where Palisade Bender suggested that they replace the horses with sheep?
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Old 20 Sep 2019, 01:01 (Ref:3929003)   #18
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I wonder if the Romans had a "How to Fix Chariot Racing" thread?.
There was some recent archaeological discoveries that uncovered some unique tablets. Apparently it was citizen discussions around Chariot Racing. As you would expect it was about the usual stuff.

Complaints about how the predictability of the races was common. How much better it was when the chariots were much harder to drive and more fun to watch when they ran Quadriga (four horses) vs. Bigae (two horse) style. Normal stuff.

The sport changed when one enterprising team owner obtained exclusive rights to the Hippodrome. Previously it was easier to watch. Seats were free for the poor, but now it was expensive to attend and even if you wanted to listen just outside the walls they charged you to be within earshot. It was so much nicer when they had free OTA (Over the air). Everyone could be a fan back then. Now some didn't even bother going to watch or listen, but it remained fun to complain about in the public forums.

There were other complaints as well. There was always the age old debate if it was the driver, the chariot or the horses. Some like to watch the horses and chariots, some just the drivers. Nobody could agree on exactly what chariot racing was about, or which elements were important. Sometimes these discussions resulted in fist fights in the public forums and occasionally deaths (today that is called a "permanent ban")

There would be periods in which various chariots or horses dominated. At one point a very wealthy breeder spent lots of money working on creating the perfect horse. They weren't as noisy as others, but they were very reliable and were very fast. Even after years of trying, other breeders just couldn't quite find the exact secret of that breeder's success. They won many races and championships.

As the chariots, drivers and horses got better, it seems like the racing got worse. Previously the better drivers would win by large margins and could work their way through the field. Now it was rare for any pass to happen at the front of the field during the race. As you would catch up with the chariot in front of you, the level of dust kicked up was just enormous. You would get close and then just loose your way and skid out. Those that organized the races tried to fix this. They eventually tried a system named DRS (Dust Reduction System). While it sort of worked, it was not quite as effective as everyone hoped and really didn't solve the problem. Many of the older fans felt it was particularly artificial and that older chariots "back in the day" didn't have this problem.



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Old 20 Sep 2019, 01:30 (Ref:3929007)   #19
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Turns out that the views expressed in the tablets was quite inconsistent and whenever Caesar listen to them and made changes it made the racing worse.
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Old 20 Sep 2019, 16:07 (Ref:3929112)   #20
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Haha brilliant Richard.

I particularly enjoyed the movie adaptation.

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Old 20 Sep 2019, 19:54 (Ref:3929136)   #21
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Haha brilliant Richard.

I particularly enjoyed the movie adaptation.

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Thanks.

If I was any good with photo editing skills, I would take a current F1 cockpit (with halo) and make that into a chariot with the current 13" wheels, driver holding reins, power unit as a horse, etc. But we are way off topic, and my skills suck and/or I don't have the time.

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Old 21 Sep 2019, 20:19 (Ref:3929281)   #22
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E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
There was some recent archaeological discoveries that uncovered some unique tablets. Apparently it was citizen discussions around Chariot Racing. As you would expect it was about the usual stuff.....
Richard
Great post Richard Made me smile. Just a bit too close to the truth.
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Old 26 Sep 2019, 16:38 (Ref:3930250)   #23
chunterer
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chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
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Originally Posted by Armco Bender View Post
I wonder if the Romans had a "How to Fix Chariot Racing" thread?.
😁

Ancestors of Grosjean?!
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