Why Can't The Clubs work together?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by kipper

........ I guess the problems lie in the fact that club's gain little from spectators attending the meeting (although they need marshals as evidenced by The Flagman's post) and that publishing a list at an early stage may do more harm than good if it is wholly unrepresentative of the final entry......

Very true...In fact, (and I can only speak for 360 for certain but Im pretty sure its the same with other clubs as well) we dont get ANYTHING from the gate or from the spectator (unless they buy a programme)

Thing is, last year I told the truth on here about how many I had in etc, I can real off the names now of who were in for that event...8 cars turned up...so...wpuld it have done you any good to know the entry list?

From a clubs point of view it is very simple and actually done not wholly for the benefit of the club, but for the benefit of the event and so in a way, the spectator, you see, if a club lets it be known that they have sold out and have this car and that car and that car, then you the spectator will go there, the marshals will go there and everyone is happy. But say its only half full and the club is still trying to get entries in, say its only a third full, should they come clean and tell everyone, thereby driving a knife into the events back?...suddenly the team/driver who was going to enter now thinks "mmm maybe not" the marshal who was going to go on post now thinks "I'll give that one a miss"

Last year, rumour got round that we (360) had sold the day as a track day, it killed us, rumours went everywhere and it did us no good at all.

This year it is different because we have done it in a different way whereby the actual class splits wont be done until entry is closed, it creates an added twist to it as noone knows what group they will be in until the morning of the race, they will build the car to the best that they can without knowing what it is up against


I have said this to other organisers and I will say the same on here, we do need to , as organisers, sit down and work out our calendar, it is madness to keep on like this whereby we play our cards close to our chest and then find that actually noone wins from it. Historic racing is growing, we know that, but giving Drivers impossible choices as well as Marshals and indeed spectators will kill us and I think as do some other organisers that the time has come to stop being children and start being adult about it. We all just want to race dont we?


Damn Ive got my heel stuck in this soap box now!!

[Pretty Vacant]

Some interesting and wholly valid comments and thoughts all round.

As has been said the HSCC put up entry lists on line in advance and the HSCC sned them out to competitors.

Now as I see it the difference is this: HSCC and CSCC (and whole heap more!) all have specific cut of points for entries to be in by and thereafter have a penalty cost if you enter late. Masters are far more circumspect and don't have any final dates for entries. I have entered a car that was only just ready 2 days before a meeting with them, knowing I could, other organisers would have accpeted it but it would have cost me £25 more on top of the entry fee.

So I guess my question, or in fact beef, (as Ben said its nice as a competitor to know how big grids are and who else is out on track with you) is why don't they have cut off points for entries? Surley most people will know they can or cannot race a couple of weeks before the meeting?

Soap box passed on the the next person........................

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Pretty Vacant

So I guess my question, or in fact beef, (as Ben said its nice as a competitor to know how big grids are and who else is out on track with you) is why don't they have cut off points for entries? Surley most people will know they can or cannot race a couple of weeks before the meeting?

Soap box passed on the the next person........................

Soap box caught!

Your first misunderstanding (not being discourteous!) is that 2 weeks is a lifetime for many entrants and, with preparation, test days, other meetings etc. a lot of people really don't know, until the last minute, if their car's going to be ready or not. Not forgetting, of course, not having an unlimited budget!
Secondly, HSCC and CSCC (your examples) have degrees of 'championship loyalty' of which 360MRC and, to a smaller degree Masters, don't have the benefit and, if you were a race organiser, are you going to turn away entries because 'you're too late', if you've got spaces on the grid? I think not?

Next on the soapbox?

[gary396]

Originally Posted by johngee

Next on the soapbox?

That'll be me then. I agree John, as I acknowledged when I started this one off, that it can be hard for organisers / entrants to publish lists much in advance but surely one-week out at least they could say "xxx number of entrants" - the HSCC have already done this for the Donington meeting later in the month. Masters just have a few teasers on their News page.

I think one-week away would justify at least something better from organisers for spectators who come well down the pecking order for some. (I don't mean you, 360 etc).

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

I have said this to other organisers and I will say the same on here, we do need to , as organisers, sit down and work out our calendar, it is madness to keep on like this whereby we play our cards close to our chest and then find that actually noone wins from it. Historic racing is growing, we know that, but giving Drivers impossible choices as well as Marshals and indeed spectators will kill us and I think as do some other organisers that the time has come to stop being children and start being adult about it. We all just want to race dont we?


Damn Ive got my heel stuck in this soap box now!!

Just keep on that soap box Claire- I'll bring you a coffee and donut every now and then.

This is OT, so apologies, but re date clashes I don't think it is just organisers like Claire and John tearing hair out. Think how difficult it must be getting for preparers with individual customers wanting support same w/end but at other ends of Europe! And as a driver, I miss one darn good meeting as have to make a choice between two or more....

[johngee]

I've been thinking about this, as grumpy old men do.

This issue of previewing entries is a product of the 'internet generation' When I started in motorsport, firstly as a spectator, then a marshal, then a competitor, you rarely had a clue about the content of any meeting (except a few inches of gossip in Autosport), until you got your programme on race morning......and even then you had pages of scribbled additions/deletions/car and driver changes - even at international events. Sometimes it was a disappointment but sometimes a nice surprise......but it didn't stop me going.
This whole issue is a product of instant information being available -or expected-'on line' - I'm not saying that's wrong, just a fact.
As an aside, if we had said last year what the entry was at the 360, we would have been a laughing stock but, in truth, it was the best days motorsport I've ever been involved with and I don't think anybody who was there would disagree. It cost Claire and I thousands of our own money to go through with it but this year, the 6 hour race is moving to a whole new level both in quantity and quality (plus a support race), so sometimes you just have to keep faith and sheer numbers and names don't always make a good motor race...... and that's not an apology in advance for this year - you'll be pleasantly surprised!
The instant communication provided by the internet can be both a blessing and a curse - this year it's proving to be a blessing.
Going back to the title of this thread, if you come to Oulton Park next Saturday, you'll see some great racing with stunning cars and if you don't come, you'll be missing something ...... and it won't snow

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Pretty Vacant

Some interesting and wholly valid comments and thoughts all round.

As has been said the HSCC put up entry lists on line in advance and the HSCC sned them out to competitors.

Now as I see it the difference is this: HSCC and CSCC (and whole heap more!) all have specific cut of points for entries to be in by and thereafter have a penalty cost if you enter late. Masters are far more circumspect and don't have any final dates for entries. I have entered a car that was only just ready 2 days before a meeting with them, knowing I could, other organisers would have accpeted it but it would have cost me £25 more on top of the entry fee.

So I guess my question, or in fact beef, (as Ben said its nice as a competitor to know how big grids are and who else is out on track with you) is why don't they have cut off points for entries? Surley most people will know they can or cannot race a couple of weeks before the meeting?

Soap box passed on the the next person........................

Originally Posted by johngee

Soap box caught!

Your first misunderstanding (not being discourteous!) is that 2 weeks is a lifetime for many entrants and, with preparation, test days, other meetings etc. a lot of people really don't know, until the last minute, if their car's going to be ready or not. Not forgetting, of course, not having an unlimited budget!
Secondly, HSCC and CSCC (your examples) have degrees of 'championship loyalty' of which 360MRC and, to a smaller degree Masters, don't have the benefit and, if you were a race organiser, are you going to turn away entries because 'you're too late', if you've got spaces on the grid? I think not?

Next on the soapbox?

TBH I've never paid a late entry fee, make a friendly phone call to the organisers and they will generally waive it. I try not to make a habit of this but on occasions you may be able to make meeting you thought you couldn't do, and in one case last year there was one race I didn't want to do but was persuaded otherwise by our co-ordinator at the last minute
As for wanting to know who else is going before you make a decision, as I've said elsewhere, if you wait for everyone else to enter then no one will.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Just keep on that soap box Claire- I'll bring you a coffee and donut every now and then.

This is OT, so apologies, but re date clashes I don't think it is just organisers like Claire and John tearing hair out. Think how difficult it must be getting for preparers with individual customers wanting support same w/end but at other ends of Europe! And as a driver, I miss one darn good meeting as have to make a choice between two or more....

It will continue until someone goes bust.... we were talking to someone (who we hadn't spoke to for sometime) about this at Race Retro and that person said what I tend to agree with. This will implode soon. The continual "set up a series for profit and to hell with it" will carry on until someone will go bust and I'm not talking about the small fry coming to the table now, Im talking someone big will not be able to keep the overheads and the membership and it will fail.

This has highjacked this thread and I am guilty of it so I apologise but if we dont ALL and I MEAN ALL as organisers think about what we are doing, then in the long run, it wont just be the organiser who will suffer , we will all suffer, circuit, organiser, competitor, official, marshal, spectator all of us will.

[terence]

I fully agree Claire,I think that the Foulston Years were only the start of todays problems.[I dont care what anyone say's, she DID start the ball rolling!] I think it to be only a matter of time before clubs start folding because of the lack of entry's,everyone only has a set amount for racing,once it's gone------------.

[Pretty Vacant]

Clearly I'm heading towards grumpy old man, as I've been thinking about this as you do....................!

In many other sports, and certainly with the bigger series in the UK in racing there does seem to be a certain amount of discussion before calendars are announced.

For example in football in each different division there are set days when the fixture list is released. So.........................

In the area we are mostly all competeing in and interested about, why can't it take someone to realise that this will implode as has already been stated very clearly and strogly before.

Clubs/Organisers/Promoters all talk to individual circuits to book dates, why can't this be done in one place at one time? Maybe a few egos would need to be subdued, maybe a few hatchets would have to be buried, but we as competitors would benefit. After all why not be grown up about it, no one series is better than the other as long as one person feels thats the place for them to compete, each has its own stalwarts and each has its own detractors. If everyone came together it would benefit racing as whole, and no one would suffer long term (I think).

No one can do anything until after a certain Mr E has settled his diary apparently, so why can't the Historic organisers bang their heads together and all talk, forget egos/personality clashes/previous disputes, think of the end user the commpetitor and sit round a table once a year to talk it through! I'm sure Dimbleby will chair you all for a fee of needed!

Rant number 2 over...............................

And the next soap box goes to...............

(seriously Claire JG and Terry have all made valid points, and it all seems to point in one direction to me?!)

[johngee]

What we all seem to forget (including me!) is that we share our venues with the motorcycle racing fraternity, who have their own agenda (and rightly so) and key dates. Also a number of high profile 'historic' meetings (Goodwood FOS and Revival, Silverstone Classic, Oulton Park Gold Cup etc.) are advertised, maybe a year in advance, and are thus a 'fait a compli'
As you have all said, or implied, there needs to be more co-operation in a locked room with egos and self interest left outside the door.
I'm dreaming again!

[Paulaweybridge]

The fastest way to make a 'Small Fortune' in Motor Racing is to start off with a 'Large One'.

Now where did I hear that from ....

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by johngee

What we all seem to forget (including me!) is that we share our venues with the motorcycle racing fraternity, who have their own agenda (and rightly so) and key dates. Also a number of high profile 'historic' meetings (Goodwood FOS and Revival, Silverstone Classic, Oulton Park Gold Cup etc.) are advertised, maybe a year in advance, and are thus a 'fait a compli'
As you have all said, or implied, there needs to be more co-operation in a locked room with egos and self interest left outside the door.
I'm dreaming again!

You're not dreaming at all, but I do feel that we have aired this time and again yet still we do not do anything.

We annouced our date for this years 360 last year, five days after the running of the first event. I told the world but it is a free world and there is nothing to stop competition from saying "we'll do ours that weekend"
Rightly so, this is a free country. But, I could name now three drivers who would have been at the other event but had already committed to 360, I also know of two entries that would have been at the 360 but are now "up north" Why? ...t'was no need for it.

This is not the thread for this and perhaps should be moved to another but once again I will lay my neck firmly on the line, I am happy to facilitate it, I will organise it, I will make sure there is tea and coffee and dognuts and biscuits and a massive table if represenatives of the organisers and the circuits want to get together to try and resolve an issue that is getting bigger by the day, then Im ya girl, I PROMISE i will facilitate it, hell I will go one futher, I will actually write to the chair's of all relevant organising clubs and suggest it and let you know how I get on. I will not name names nor indeed point fingers on either way that it goes, but, I shall either say "it wasnt possible" or "it is in progress"

Yours
Claire Smith

[Paulaweybridge]

I wish you luck Claire because to achieve a balanced calendar would be awesome.

Two years ago the 360MRC did not exist and now it does all down to a dream that you and John turned into reality.



So achieving the near impossible can happen.

[terence]

Claire,you know only too well how much I admire your enthusiasm,but this is a massive task your setting yourself. It would be soooo much better if there were more people as yourself who were willing to put their hands up and be counted. Problem these days is there are so many people who dont like treading on toes!

[johngee]

Yes Terry - it's big task but unless 'someone' tries, it will be like the debate over last minute race entries etc. "I'm not going to enter unless somebody else does"
I'm behind Claire 100% and, if you think about it, she could be regarded as an 'honest broker' - apart from the 360, no axe to grind and no vested interest, other than the good of the sport and a passion for its' continued good health ....... and she's not easily deflected - otherwise we would all still be on here, discussing the possibility of a 6 hour race!

[Al Weyman]

BARC dont even issue an entry list at all now even when you get final instructions. I can see both sides of the argument here as it happens and I think its understandable they don't release entry lists.

[terence]

Originally Posted by johngee

Yes Terry - it's big task but unless 'someone' tries, it will be like the debate over last minute race entries etc. "I'm not going to enter unless somebody else does"
I'm behind Claire 100% and, if you think about it, she could be regarded as an 'honest broker' - apart from the 360, no axe to grind and no vested interest, other than the good of the sport and a passion for its' continued good health ....... and she's not easily deflected - otherwise we would all still be on here, discussing the possibility of a 6 hour race!

I fully agree John,you know I'm with you and Claire,just that it's a shame there are not more people willing to share these concern's. At some stage,it is something that will need to be appoached,if ALL of these club's want to survive the current [un]ecconomic times.

[Derwent Motorsp]

I've been organising various types of motorsport for some 40 years now, since uni days. I can remember in the 80s and early 90's stage rallies would get full entries within a week of the regs coming out and I would suspect the same happened in most other events including racing. Thus people had to get their entries in very quickly and remember that was all done by post. Clubs had to be careful to send all the regs out at the same time and then sit back and watch the bag of mail come in!
I don't have any sympathy with people not getting their entries in. Just think of the club that is carrying the can for circuit hire and all the other costs. Some venues ask for a deposit and they have a deadline for cancelation (perhaps a month in advance). I know of a club who did not get enough entries for their event by the deadline and were faced with the choice of cancelling or hanging on in the hope they got enough entries. They stuck it out and did not get a rush of entries and had to cancel and lost their deposit.
As far a sorting the calendar out, I feel sure that the main organising clubs do meet with the MSA but the problem is the increasing number of commercial groups getting in on the act. If they have enough cash backing they can go in and buy a date at a track over what a club can pay, then they sell the races to those who can afford to pay, which is more than what a genuine club would charge its members. This why you get daft series like the Fiat Abarths at big meetings - they will pay a large sum to get to meetings that get a lot of spectators. Whether the average spectator wants to see then is another matter. What about SMART car racing..................
The EU is also to blame in that the MSA cannot control the number of organisers, championships and series. As was noted in MSN recently are they not someting like 200 new series this year? They can't all survive.

[Al Weyman]

Maybe we all need to strike!

[Nick JM]

Just a small thought ...and maybe I am missing the point here... but I am afraid I am one of the drivers who are to blame for last minute entries. The main reason for me is, quite simply, a balance of money and time. I have a family with 3 youngsters all of whom pull in different directions. I work my a**e off in the week to pay for all the usual things everyone else does (mortgage, living expenses, running a house etc) and I am, effectively, self employed.

That means I have, quite genuinely, no idea if I can afford to go on holiday/pay for a race entry with all the support I require (because I am not very good [at racing!] or capable of preparing it myself) until the last minute, either in terms of time or finance. So, like a holiday, it is all a bit last minute dot com. It is entirely my fault if the entry is booked or if i cannot get the race support and frankly, as for testing or tuition (which is what I should be doing), it is a distant wish list.

However, and before you all reach for either the handerchief, or the sick bag, the whole point is, for me, I am doing something I enjoy hugely in an environment in which I have been a passive spectator for many years and have finally been able (thanks to Iain) to be an active participant. There are a number of bods in a similar position who lack the luxury of being able to plan the entire season as soon as the calendars are published but who add to the economic, social and weekend warrior spectrum which is the sport, hobby and pastime we all love.

Right, enough of the jingoistic narrative; I'm off to Delta's Tea Break Natter!

[johngee]

Your post is just what I was trying to describe earlier in the thread Nick? Whilst it's pain for the organisers, i have every sympathy with the pressures on many competitors and it's all too easy to be critical of late or uncertain entries....... and I'm speaking from the point of view of a small 'hand to mouth' organiser with limited capital to risk. I share your frustration and understand your position more than you appreciate as I hope you understand ours.
Perhaps better and earlier non-judgemental communication from entrants to clubs/organisers may help lift the feelings of frustration

[Cliff Ryan]

Originally Posted by Nick JM

Just a small thought ...and maybe I am missing the point here... but I am afraid I am one of the drivers who are to blame for last minute entries. The main reason for me is, quite simply, a balance of money and time. I have a family with 3 youngsters all of whom pull in different directions. I work my a**e off in the week to pay for all the usual things everyone else does (mortgage, living expenses, running a house etc) and I am, effectively, self employed.

That means I have, quite genuinely, no idea if I can afford to go on holiday/pay for a race entry with all the support I require (because I am not very good [at racing!] or capable of preparing it myself) until the last minute, either in terms of time or finance. So, like a holiday, it is all a bit last minute dot com. It is entirely my fault if the entry is booked or if i cannot get the race support and frankly, as for testing or tuition (which is what I should be doing), it is a distant wish list.

However, and before you all reach for either the handerchief, or the sick bag, the whole point is, for me, I am doing something I enjoy hugely in an environment in which I have been a passive spectator for many years and have finally been able (thanks to Iain) to be an active participant. There are a number of bods in a similar position who lack the luxury of being able to plan the entire season as soon as the calendars are published but who add to the economic, social and weekend warrior spectrum which is the sport, hobby and pastime we all love.

Right, enough of the jingoistic narrative; I'm off to Delta's Tea Break Natter!

Same here - I'm one of the bods who would love to be able to plan and commit to a full season's racing in advance, but simply can't. I don't normally enter a race until i have finished the race before and know what state my car is in and what work needs doing on it before I can enter the next race.

[MartinSmith]

I'm sorry, I know I started this, but it really is not the thread for this discussion people, we have done it to death before on dedicated threads as well

This thread is for the forthcoming Masters meeting on the 12th (which I'm happy to say I'm clerking!) Perhaps we should return to that meeting and park this bus in another thread or what have you x

Ta
C

[SAMD]

Couldn't agree more with Nick and Claire.