Robin Miller on Texas-style racing

[Jay]

Most of you know my position with the IRL, and that I am not a fan of it. However, I am a fan of certain drivers there, including Kenny, and I don't like seeing things like that happen to any driver. I thought Robin Miller had a lot of good points to make on this type of racing, and ones that should be discussed.

Here's the article: http://espn.go.com/rpm/irl/2003/1013/1637489.html

A few quotes:

In 87 IRL races during the past eight years, an astounding 76 drivers have been hospitalized with concussions or fractures of the skull, neck, back, pelvis, legs, arms, wrists, ankles, feet, hip and shoulder. And that's not counting the four seriously injured drivers in the IRL Infiniti Pro series in 2002 and 2003.

"It's (bad) for the drivers but great for the fans," said Scott Dixon after capturing the 2003 IRL title with a second place finish.

"It's like Russian Roulette," said one veteran following Sunday's show. "Sooner or later your time is coming."

Because every time the IRL competes at Texas it elicits the same two emotions from everyone watching:

Titillation and trepidation.

It's no coincidence Michael Andretti retired before Texas this year. And Scott Dixon's agent wants to get him out of the IRL and into Formula One before he joins the "Orthopedic Surgery Club." Dario Franchitti wants to go back to CART but hasn't been able to secure a deal. When asked how much he'd enjoyed the three-car bump and grind to the photo finish at Chicago earlier this season, Bryan Herta replied: "That wasn't fun."

Of course the PR spin is that all the drivers think the IRL is the greatest series in motorsports history. Under oath, the majority of them would admit they hate tempting fate 16 times a year in the asphalt jungle. These guys know the risks of open wheel and are as brave as almost any generation of racers, they just don't fancy being sacrificed for the good of the show.

I'm interested in hearing from IRL fans, and in particular those invovled in the series or with some involvement with it.

[enemy-ace]

IMO IRL style racing is just an aero induced form of restrictor plate racing as seen in NASCAR. In NASCAR I think it's common knowledge that the drivers hate restrictor plate racing and commonly refer to it as "waiting for the big one". With the speed and proximity that the cars race at in the IRL it was only a matter of time before the big one happened. It's a testament to the driver's ability's that the really big one hasn't happened yet. Luckily it only involved the two drivers for the most part, it could have been much worse.
Hopefully the powers that be will look at the inherent dangers of IRL style racing and look at ways of making it safer for all involved.

[fordtc87]

Enemy, You hit the nail on the head. Tony George figured out that NASCAR fans liked the restrictor plate racing and branded it into the IRL. Too bad that CART had better and safer races with the Hanford device at Michigan and California. I was in the Irish Hills up until CART got the axe and the show was always spectacular. Glad to see Kenny is alright and that he can be with his wife when their child is born.

[dirtfan]

If the IRL were to reduce downforce or do something else to slow down the cars and put the driver more into the equation, Robin Miller would be braying incessantly about how "inferior" the slower IRL cars are. Saturday night "hobby" drivers get killed at 90 mph. It's a very unfortunate fact of racing. Stan Fox survived a horrendous crash at Indy, only to lose his life in a traffic accident!

[climb]

Jay,

as a deep motorsport connaisseur, you ought to know by now that:

1) Racing is dangerous
2) Oval racing is particularly dangerous
3) Whatever series running on ovals implies the same risks (see Zanardi, Dale Earnhardt...)
4) Oval racing has typically many more accidents on an absolute scale, thus the seemingly high number of serious ones should be put in percentage with the total high amount of crashes that happen; the rate may result lower than other road series which have less serious accidents, but also many less accidents in general regardless of their seriousness.

dirtfan, well spotted!

[racer69]

Why does Dario Franchitti keep getting brought up by various people (Miller, Junquira etc...) with regards to IRL safety???

If they changed the rules to lose the 'pack' racing, people who don't like the IRL now still won't like it, they will just find something else to harp on about (no close racing and so on)

There is always going to be a higher injury rate in a igh speed all oval series, compared to CART that for the most part runs on low speed street circuits.

At the end of the day, the drivers know the risks, and if they don't want to race, they won't race. People have been saying Dixon is desperate to leave the series since he started, maybe he didn't want to be there at the start, but would someone who didn't have their heart in it have driven as well and have taken the risks (3 wide at Chicago finish) he did?

[rustyfan]

I'm a big fan of the IndyCar series and I for one hope they make some aero-changes to eliminate the pack racing. I'm quite confident they would manage to produce close racing and exiting finishes anyway.

Originally posted by racer69
There is always going to be a higher injury rate in a igh speed all oval series, compared to CART that for the most part runs on low speed street circuits.

Exactly. Not to mention the racing these days has been relegated to a single-file parade that doesn't allow for close racing anyway, further minimizing the risk of crashes initated due to car-to-car contact (which is one of the more common reasons for hard crashes).

[climb]

And, Jay,
Andretti stopped his career at that time, not because of Texas, but because of Indy500, which is the ultimate race; the most important, that he never had won. After that, understandably no more motivations for him.
The fact that the following was that of Texas, it seems to me absolutely casual.

[Jay]

Don't address that to me, Robin Miller wrote it, and I just thought it was interesting. If you think there are any errors in the article, ESPN does have an easy to use feedback form.

Motorracing is dangerous no question, but some forms are much more dangerous than others. 76 trips to the hospital out of 87 races equates to an 87% chance that a driver will end up in hospital after any given IRL race - isn't that something to be concerned about?

[climb]

Do we want to abolish oval racing?
Is that what you mean jay?
Drivers who choose IRL know its dangerousness not less than you, if not more, nevertheless they do anyway.
Are they all a bunch of idiots?

[paul-collins]

In 2002, CART's oval races had an average of 14% laps run under caution. In the same year, IRL had 21% (not including Nazareth, which would clearly skew the results at 52% under yellow).

How is it strictly the ovals' fault?

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by Jay
Don't address that to me, Robin Miller wrote it, and I just thought it was interesting. If you think there are any errors in the article, ESPN does have an easy to use feedback form.

Perhaps the way you presented the link (with the quotes etc) gave people the idea that you share quite a few of Miller's thoughts, hence leading people to comment it directly towards you.

[paul-collins]

That'd be their mistake, then. Jay did say "I thought Robin Miller had a lot of good points to make on this type of racing" but he clearly wanted people to debate the points as Robin Miller presented them.

Read carefully, folks.

[marcus]

racing is dangerous pure and simple.

if ya scared then get out of the car boys let someone in who isnt gonna be scared.

I dont like flying so i choose not to hop onto an aeroplane.

dont get me wrong safety is paramount in any form of the sport and I think the saftey in the IRl is improving all the time, numbers mean nothing heck they can be turned around to suit any argument.

I am positive that the officials are always looking at ways to improve safety and the drivers DO have a choice so therfore Im not concerned one little bit by this constant drivel.

[climb]

Paul,
no polemics with Jay from me, what i wrote can as well be forwarded to Robin Miller, but, honestly, we perfectly know what are Jay's personal feelings about IRL, as he frankly admits, and it's natural to deduce that he agrees 100% with that article. Or not, Jay?

[marcus]

Jay is welcome to his opinions and I have no problem with him posting in here with this article from Mr Miller.

its open for good natured debate for all as long as it stays friendly.

so far it has so lets continue with the conversation

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by marcus
racing is dangerous pure and simple.

if ya scared then get out of the car boys let someone in who isnt gonna be scared.
...
I am positive that the officials are always looking at ways to improve safety and the drivers DO have a choice so therfore Im not concerned one little bit by this constant drivel.

Again, I ask, why is this ok for the IRL? If CART can have 50% less race distance run under caution on ovals, shouldn't IRL be looking at the differences to help prevent the accidents in the first place?

Of course racing is dangerous. You'll never edit out all the danger in the activity. But my feeling is that the IRL's cars, with their heavy aero package, make it difficult for drivers to apprehend the danger because they think they're more manoueverable and able to avoid the trouble than they actually are. So they run in packs, too close for safety.

Talk about IRL safety is drivel?

[Jay]

I do agree with Robin's general point, though I have no way of verifying any of the information he has layed out - such as the comment about Michael Andretti's retirement. I do however remember that when Michael raced in CART he was always the first one to complain that a particular condition, track or venue was not safe...such as Texas.

I'll give the IRL some credit on improving the safety of their cars - if Kenny's accident had happened a year or so earlier I don't think he'd ever be walking again or worse - that's improvement.

That said, I think if the number of injuries that occured in the IRL and IPS series this year had occured in CART or F1 - people would be demanding a major safety overhaul. Yet here it's just another year of broken bones and head injuries?

[rustyfan]

Miller's article is pretty one-sided though.

He for example mentions Sam Schmidt's career ending IndyCar crash at Vegas, but leaves out the CART crashes that ended the careers of Emerson Fittipaldi and Alex Zanardi.

Personally I think that a lot of anti-IndyCar people take advantage of Kenny's horrible crash to use it against the IndyCar series (kinda obvious it would happen, but still..). I, for example, didn't hear people questioning CART when Jeff Krosnoff perished at Toronto, taking track worker Gary Avrin with him. But I guess it was ok to call that a "freak accident" and simply move on.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Scott Brayton died in what basically was a 1995 CART spec car, seeing as the IndyCar series didn't get their "own" cars until the start of the 1997 season.

[marcus]

I agree paul , safety is paramount and i dont know why CART compared to the IRL has that percentage , maybe its driver experience ? maybe its the aero package , I simply am in no position to answer that question.

the fact is that Im sure the officials are looking at it and are trying to improve.

yes accidents happen and we dont want anyone to get hurt but there have been advances in car construction for sure , 10 years ago would Kenny have survived ? (I dunno Im guessing maybe not) the padded fences seem to be working (allthough not used everywhere , maybe they should be?)

people want close racing , its exciting to watch I sure dont want to watch a race that the aero package wont allow a car to get within 100 meters of another car because he looses grip , so maybe it all comes down to the aero package the cars are using?

but will that solve anything ?

I mean ok so the cars wont be close but if you crash you could hurt yourself on an oval no matter what series or aero package , but keepng the cars apart for fear of touching each other surely isnt good for any business.

maybe it comes down to the tracks themselves ? , should modern day race cars be driven on superspeedways?

or should they stick to mile and mile and a half ovals where speeds are not up as high?

do the cars need to be slowed down in some way ???

its a very complicated issue that will probably never go away from this sport and something that always needs to be looked at even if there were no injuries at all anymore.

[paul-collins]

marcus, I feel that the cars are running too close together. Period.

Robin Miller talks about drivers interlocking wheels frequently. That terrifies me.

The difference between Kenny's accident and, say, Zanardi's, is that Kenny's engine flew into the stands. It was because the car got airborne, which was because the tires were interlocked. (The parallel between Kenny's accident and Jeff Krosnoff's accident is pretty clear, in my mind.) CART had to institute changes based on Jeff's accident; IRL has to look at what actions they need to take, too. I, for one, do remember that there was a lot of questioning of races being held on street canyons at the time. There was a lot of press generated in the Toronto area at the time by that accident.

My main point is not about the severity of the accidents, though (as there will always be a few instances of severe mishaps, but it's tough to draw any statistically relevant conclusions based on the small sample). I'm more concerned that IRL has more accidents per lap than CART on similar tracks.

Yes, Robin Miller is pro-CART. It doesn't mean what he's written is untrue, though. (edited to add, he does mention Krosoff's accident, along with Greg Moore's and Gonzalo Rodriguez')

Some people are suggesting that, had this happened on the front stretch (where fans were sitting), this accident could have been 1955 Le Mans redux. It's a valid point - a multiple-death scenario could have dire consequences for all open-wheeled racing in North America, possibly all motorsports.

[marcus]

and it could happen in any openwheel series though ?

even Nascar for that fact , I think at alot of tracks they dont allow people right at the fence (from what ive seen on TV) that is one thing I guess that helps.

im interested to know what changes were made after toronto 96 though ? , I dont know of anything except to the circuit there itslef ? maybe I missed it ?

you make a good ppoint though , it could have been much worse if there had of been fans there , but again interlocking wheels can happen in any openwheelers , heck i got tipped up in my kart at 25mph , so i guess its a problem for ALL open wheel classes and what do we do about it ?

mudgards ??? barge boards so wheels cant interlock perhaps ?

we certainly dont want a repeat of le man 55

[climb]

The bare number of yellow flagged laps isn't that meaningful: a race can be put under yellows many times for debris removal (it happens very often), therefore not 'cos a serious accident.
Being pro-cart at this stage (of difficult dialectics between CART and IRL) means (i say it in a very serene way) being deeply biased against IRL, and Mr Miller probably is. Thus what he says may be true, but the spirit of his intervention is not (or doesn't seem) that of caring drivers' safety, but just that of barely taking profit of a noble intention (drivers' health) to bash IRL.
This explains the strong reaction of IRL fans to that article. We all perceived that kinda bad faith.

[paul-collins]

Climb, I agree that yellow flag laps don't mean there was always an accident, but would you not agree that "debris cautions" and other non-accident caution laps would be consistent across the series? (My numbers are for ovals only - street courses in CART were more in line with IRL numbers, and road courses were even lower than CART's oval numbers)

I could go through and figure out number of incidents/accidents, but haven't the time or inclination, as I'm comfortable that the numbers are a reflection of the different accident rates, if not a direct correlation. (It's all there in the box scores - ESPN has the last two years of IRL, and CART have their own box scores on their website)

When anything has its detractors, you ignore the negative statements at your peril. The detractors are the most likely to identify shortcomings without turning a blind eye towards them. Learn well, I say!

marcus, mudgards? I was thinking along the lines of the metal bumper strip you find on rental karts... NOT!

Of all the things Robin said, this is the one that terrified me:

Especially when certain drivers interlock wheels at 215 mph like they've done consistently in the IRL. It's like they don't have any respect for the consequences and some of that is because they've never been hurt. Yet.

If this is true, then there has to be something done. Maybe chassis sidepods widened to stop errant wheels from entering between your axles?

[marcus]

well i find that statement hard to believe , I cant think of any time that any driver has interlocked wheels on purpose and if Mr Miller can give a good example then i will stand corrected.

I guess its just a part of open wheel racing , if we want open wheels then they can get interlocked and apart from covering the wheels or protecting them some way there is always that possibility.