Cheap FFord

[itdontgo]

Would this be in any way remotely competitive for a decent driver:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sparton-si...item1c317556e1

I was thinking it's something to get me started until the right car turns up. Perhaps it's a waste of time but it is cheap. It you break it where would you get parts?

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by itdontgo

Would this be in any way remotely competitive for a decent driver:

......

rather depends what engine and box you put in it - and how much you spend on said motive power !

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by itdontgo

I was thinking it's something to get me started until the right car turns up. Perhaps it's a waste of time but it is cheap.

It could well turn out to be more expensive than buying one ready to go so may not be "a bargain"

[vanrf81]

you're looking at £5K for engine / gearbox / belts plus it will no doubt need other jobs doing - probably fire extinguisher cert and tyres as a minimum
1983 is too new for Classic FF and too old to be competitive in pre90
where are you based ?
do you want to run in a national or regional series ?
what is your budget ?
why don't you PM me and I'll see if I can help - I run the cars for sale side of Classic FF
cheers
Steve

[Dave M]

I was thinking it's something to get me started until the right car turns up. Perhaps it's a waste of time but it is cheap. It you break it where would you get parts?[/QUOTE]


Believe it or not, these cars were originally sold with rubber bushed suspension & were not particularly competitive. Only after some people (notably Allard Kalff) converted them to ball joints were they remotely competitive. So obtaining the correct spares may well prove difficult.

[PRS RH01]

Steve is quite right the car may not be a winner in our own pre 90 series but dont tell Colin Williams that as he won outright in a 1977 PRS .Pre 90 formula fords are under valued at the moment so you could get yourself a relitive bargain. As a first car it would be a good start ,a gearbox is around £3000 and an engine £1500 up . The car looks tidy but allow £500 for bits . The only thing to worry about would be spares but in the club we have people who will fix anything ,we are at Brands on the 20th if you would like to come pm me and i will sort you some tickets . Classic Formula Ford also have a system were if you are new we throw an arm round you for you first couple of races.

Peter Hackett
Classic Formula Ford

[sebring115]

I wouldnt worry about spares too much. Not being derogatory at all, but these are cars built in a garage with basic gear. Given a lathe and some welding gear most things can be made or modified from something else. This is even more so with low volume cars like the sparton. I have an 84 Jamun and this is the same, but really nothing is hard to make or get made (people like URS and Simon Parkington will always help). Also unless there is something glaringly wrong as long as the car is well setup you will have fun!! Put it this way at that price how can you loose out. Get an engine and box, and when you decide you want a change put in a new car and sell the sparton as a roller, it can only be an appreciating asset.

If you are short of funds at least you can spread the cost a little rather than a 7k hit in one go.

Cheers

Mark

[PRS RH01]

Originally Posted by sebring115

I wouldnt worry about spares too much. Not being derogatory at all, but these are cars built in a garage with basic gear. Given a lathe and some welding gear most things can be made or modified from something else. This is even more so with low volume cars like the sparton. I have an 84 Jamun and this is the same, but really nothing is hard to make or get made (people like URS and Simon Parkington will always help). Also unless there is something glaringly wrong as long as the car is well setup you will have fun!! Put it this way at that price how can you loose out. Get an engine and box, and when you decide you want a change put in a new car and sell the sparton as a roller, it can only be an appreciating asset.

If you are short of funds at least you can spread the cost a little rather than a 7k hit in one go.

Cheers

Mark

Well put Mark not seen you on the Pre 90 list for Brands yet .

[daktari doc]

there is alot i'd love to tell you, but let me just say this, take you time, things in motor racing are seldom as they seem, may i recommend going to a few meetings (most clubs will get you in free if you contact them prior to the event) talk to the drivers and the companies that are at the circuit running some of the cars. Budgets vary widely as do the charges of the firms.
Not sure what part of the country you are in but all formula ford (kent engine based) is enjoying a resurgence of interest. Historic is at capacity with reserves at most meetings, classics has growing grids which look to be in the mid to high 20's. this means the cars are worth more, the pre 90 is building, the classics are running a mini series alongside their meetings the north west has good class structure at meetings which includes pre 90's and james beckett motorsport runs several series of races that a pre 90 has a home (champ of brands, oulton, walter hayes etc).

Also keep in mind that any car can become competative once the set up is right, i'm old enough to remember cars from the 60's racing and those now winning in historic were nowhere to be seen in period, its all down to the advancements that have come to bare and the guy sitting behind the wheel. If your just starting out, any car that gives you seat time on the track and provides you the experience is the best car for you. Hope to see you on track soon, use caution and remember to be wary, it will save you alot of money.

[PRS RH01]

Originally Posted by daktari doc

there is alot i'd love to tell you, but let me just say this, take you time, things in motor racing are seldom as they seem, may i recommend going to a few meetings (most clubs will get you in free if you contact them prior to the event) talk to the drivers and the companies that are at the circuit running some of the cars. Budgets vary widely as do the charges of the firms.
Not sure what part of the country you are in but all formula ford (kent engine based) is enjoying a resurgence of interest. Historic is at capacity with reserves at most meetings, classics has growing grids which look to be in the mid to high 20's. this means the cars are worth more, the pre 90 is building, the classics are running a mini series alongside their meetings the north west has good class structure at meetings which includes pre 90's and james beckett motorsport runs several series of races that a pre 90 has a home (champ of brands, oulton, walter hayes etc).

Also keep in mind that any car can become competative once the set up is right, i'm old enough to remember cars from the 60's racing and those now winning in historic were nowhere to be seen in period, its all down to the advancements that have come to bare and the guy sitting behind the wheel. If your just starting out, any car that gives you seat time on the track and provides you the experience is the best car for you. Hope to see you on track soon, use caution and remember to be wary, it will save you alot of money.

Spot on, my usual statement is sit on you hand and ask as there are a lot of people out there who will take your pants down for fun .

[acb9]

Generally the advice in this thread is very good, check out for yourself the costs of complete cars, the classic formula ford club has a for sale section which is only updated once a year it seems but you get an idea of values and the website does have good likes to other places where cars are sold.

My real advice would be to track down people that started out 2-3 years ago and ask them about their experiences. Personally, i looked at the race records of the classic club, found the guys in the novice section and tracked them down. Going to a few meetings proved very valuable as you got to see extremes, those running on a shoestring and those that dont!!!

If you want to know the guys i spoke to, drop me a message and i'll pass their details on, they will be happy to tell you of their experiences.

[McMuttley]

"......track down people that started out 2-3 years ago and ask them about their experiences...."

Hope this helps. I echo the advice of bide your time, talk to people, keep the budget low (impossible) til you know what you want to do - but like women, dont go for a cheap dog that you think you can scrub up; it will cost more in the long run and importantly, doesn't look as good and the next blokes and just wont be as much fun.

Remember that, as highlighted below, even cheap racing is still pretty damn expensive compared to other hobbies that, for example, sane people have.

This is not meant to scare you off, more a light-hearted, random, but realistic view of what can be involved.

I started in HFF 3 years ago as a total novice - not the cheapest series in terms of car cost - but hugely good fun with competition all the way down the grid - as is the case for all FF series from what i have seen. DO NOT buy any other racing car - all non-FF series are simply there to make up the grids for the day, stop marshalls falling asleep, keep circuits viable for when we come back next year, to drop oil etc etc. They are cheap imitations of motor racing!!!! (ducks awaiting huge barrage of vial abuse).

Ignoring all the issues i have set out below, which really should be allowed for, you might be looking at, as an absolute minimum....per race

Typical Race Costs
£250 Annual Costs Share (license, series registration, insurance, bi-annual engine re-build, cogs etc etc)
£50-£100 Share of parts through a year
£100 Tyres (assuming you do 5 events per set)
£60 Fuel, oil etc
£250 Race Entry
£100+ B&B, food, fuel etc (mpg towing is very low) (even if you sleep in a van/camper - youv'e had to buy it/watch it depreciate)
£800 ish minimum

For 15 min quali and 20 min race, thats £22+ a minute or £1,320 an hour of track time!!!

(assuming that you finish every session) (Remember that its normally even more expensive if you break down/crash/someone else crashes and you dont get a full race - 3 warm up laps in quali at Brands once cost me £1,100 per lap)

The above costs assume you are on your own, if you have a race prepper etc, then you could add at least half as much again (see below).

You can squeeze down budgets i'm sure, but for every cost you squeeze down, there are probably half a dozen hidden much fatter extras.

There are also lots of things i haven't covered below, starter batteries, tools, etc etc etc - others who look after their own cars would have a much better idea of what kit you need to budget for.

Notwithstanding all this nonsense, I haven't met anyone who wouldn't say that it is worth every penny (and of course, the endless hours spent in the wet cold paddock with greasy hairy people (and their racing husbands) is priceless).

First year I spent at least £52,147 (i stopped adding to my spredsheet at that point as it became pointless!) (i told the wife it was only £45k, but that didn't help much !! - seasoned pro's in the paddock suggest that you just tell her it cost half of what it really did, or for simplicity, move the decimal point back one - that worked much better in year 2). Of course you'll need a hidden bank account and a drug dealer's money-man to launder your cash for you (although a biscuit tin in the garden shed is probably safer than a bank right now). Also remember that as an amateur racing driver, the garden shed is likely to be your future home, so buy a decent weathertight one that fits through a garage door.

I'm not nesc a good example, but the somewhat random notes below highlight costs you might not think of (or their scale). This example is not meant for all you wiley ol' mechnically minded veterans out there to slate, just an example of what you can spend if you are starting out with no experience or mechanical knowledge; but want to do it meaningfully and not be a nuisance on track.

£25k - buying car, buying trailer, getting trailer made roadworthy, tools, suit / helmet etc
£0.5k - license, medical etc
£8k - track day costs, tuition, hiring caterham (7 events)
£5.5k - test days X7 (some net costs shared/lowered as bolted on to race events)
£5.6 - 8 race day costs (as above)
£7k - engine / engine rebuild / crash repairs / parts / labour

Obviously the car and trailer were a major element of my budget

Suit, helmet, gloves, nomex, boots etc - you can spend as little or as much as you want, but blokes being blokes never buy the cheapest, heaviest option - £2k. Dont forget that you'll buy a helmet, then a bag for the helmet and a bag to put the helmet bag in etc !!!!!

ARDS cost, license etc are not excessive.

Series registration fees - a much debated topic on here, but should max out at say £150 for the year - a tiny element of your annual budget on its own, but nevertheless adds to the 'before you even start racing' pot of annual costs.

I was a total novice, no kart, racing or meaningful track day experience. Thus the need to learn how to drive on a track and to learn some of the tracks i was racing on was fairly important. If you are not a natural, not knowing the right line, braking etc can cost at least 5-10 secs a lap for a novice (as i say to the wife, 10 seconds is a lifetime dear). I still follow guys round who are technically braver on the power and in corners than me, but i can see that their braking point, turn in and 'near-apex' experience are probably costing up to 2 secs a lap against the car they are trying to pass. So what - its just for fun you say - rubbish its racing not touring! Sit in your car in the assembly area staring at the other 30+ cars. Each one of them is going to finish (hopefully) ahead or behind another one. Its a battle. None of them want to be behind you of all people. Its a cruel pecking order and relative fractions can send you to the bottom of the pile. Further, remember that if the really quick guys at the front lap you, they are effectively stealing your fun, time and money - by shortening your race by around 5-10% - not much ? - at £1,300 an hour, thats like them pick-pocketing £130 from you as you politely slow, move over and wave them bye!!!

Sorry, back on piste! - Hiring a caterham (i only have a 4X4 road car) and having an underfed young bloke to to keep saying "more power more power more power" and to learn tracks cost me close to £8.5k in the first year.

Circa £275 for the day for a skinny whippet to shout at you is worth every penny. The caterham was i suppose a luxury (necessity for me) for the first year, but close enough to a FF to learn tracks and driving technique with some meaning. Track day fees are say £250, so even if you have your own car, with fuel, tyres, brakes, insurance etc etc, you are probably at £300 - £350 absolute minimum on your own, or £550-650+ for each track day with tuition in your own car. Hiring a Caterham for the day, insured, fuelled prepped etc cost me over £600 a pop on top - so best part of a grand for each lesson ! Worth it ?? if it puts you 5 or 10 places further up the order, and racing is important, then yes.

So learning 5 tracks in your own car say £2k on your own (will you really learn enough) or with tuition say £3.5k+ , double if you need to hire.

Race tyres. As close as £500 a set, so even if you stretch out to say 5 races / test days, that an average of £100 on top of each event cost before you start.

Testing - you may want to go out and test between / ahead of events - you have the test day fee, getting there, fuels, etc etc. On your own each test day will net at say at least £400 - much more if you need support.

'Incidents' it would be mad not to allow for the unforeseen. I missed a gear and blew an engine - a replacement of a decent standard £3.5k ??? or a good re-build of a messy pile of steel, say at least £2k???? It will happen, and you dont really know how good an engine is if it isn't freshly built by a man you watched doing it.

In addition to the revving bits, there are also (apparently) cogs that make the grinding sound at the back, allow for a decent set of ratios and dog rings, oil, springydamperthingies, gaskets, etc etc - and of course, an unimaginable quantity of cable ties. Buy shares in a far eastern cable tie manufacturer now.

Crashes. They happen 'occasionally' in FF, whether you are the cause or effect. A minor bump can cost a wishbone, fibreglass repair or other relatively minor issues ( a few hundred quid). I buried mine in Paddock Hill in quali in year 1, so added the cost of a wheel, tyre, steering column, new upper body shell, springythigamy, wishbone, uprights, welding, labour etc etc, ....all just for turning in very slightly late (you have to pay attention in those lessons).

Car prep' !!!! It has been suggested on this forum before that if i can't maintain my own car, then I shouldn't race. My take on that is ****** b*ll*cks. When i was 16 i could just about take apart a Kwakski two stroke and my mums transistor radio, but it was the putting back together phase that beat me. I spent the next 30 years being educated (sort of), scraping a living, chasing birds, paying taxes, having a magically self-maintaining company car with more electrical than mechanical bits, starting a business, not being able to afford a car, avoiding paying taxes, getting a cheap car etc etc etc. In-between I forgot to go to car maintenance classes or Cranfield school of Motorsport Engineering. That shouldn't stop me from racing. I have had a passion for motorsport history since my early teens, I have watched and photographed racing for years, so why, now that, finally, I can(not) afford it, should I not race.

Rant over, even if i tried to maintain my car, set it up etc, it would almost certainly drop oil in front of you, or have a piece fall off in your face at just the wrong moment to cause a red flag. Not ideal. I pay to have my car stored, prepped, maintained. This is a significant cost - say around £8-9k a year for a pretty active season . However, the cost for a hugely experienced specialist is a fraction of what my local car dealer charges to keep a 10 year old 4X4 on the road. In addition, i charge my clients a lot more than my FF man charges me (i hope you're not reading this), so it makes economic sense too.

If you are reasonably competent, the paddock is full of very friendly helpful people who will assist, but remember, they may be struggling to get their own car fixed or set up properly. Its no good knowing how to drive and what line where etc, if the car isn't set up to let you do it and isn't reliable enough to get you round.

Other costs???? -
> for the wife having to put up with endless weekends in a cold paddock, the eventual annual holiday inevitably needs to be upgraded;
> divorce lawyers are never cheap;
> 2 or 3 day events naturally have more costs
> new tyres for the trailer, insurance for whilst towing / storing the car
> all the track videos, guides etc that you'll buy
> on-board cameras are all the rage (and occasionally help settle race rage!)
> think of additional stuff such as a pop-up awning, etc. It rains for at least half of the racing season and on most test days.

ps, don't forget medical fees, there's always someone in a powder blue coloured car that hasn't invested in learning a track and will hit you on the new tight bit of Silverstone that you identified as a risk in learning/testing the week before - then you'll end up spending thousands in physio and surgery fees trying to fix your neck over the following years so that you can race again.

For Sale - 1970 Historic Formula Ford - Bargain at £92,714.23p

[itdontgo]

Thanks everybody for the replies they've made for very interesting reading. I was hoping to race in the BRSCC NW series at some point this year as I'm a northerner. I've let my license lapse so I presume I have that to go through again but no biggy although I've got some old ones.

I think I'm probably best waiting for a 88/89 car to crop up. Surely someone must hire race cars on an arrive and drive basis in that series?

[Thundersports]

This chap does www.racecarwarehouse .com

[dikko]

Brilliant Muttley. Can I quote you when I get enquiries?
Maybe it will help keep the grid numbers down....

Dick D. HFF Drivers rep.

Have to add to his observations that we do have a good number of people whose first drives around a track are in a race and there is normally practice a day or two before each one too. As for the rest of it - all too exaggerated and wonderfully true!

Anyone wanting to try HFF series can contact two or three race prep people who hire out. We have a scheme where you don't have to join the series and are allowed one race register-free. Grids are normally full though and registered drivers have priority. Come along at a race meet some time.

[andy97]

The cheapest F Fords are the Zetecs for use in Monoposto 1800 or Mono Zetec.

Bullet proof engines for a start and lots of folk run on second hand tyres from the National F Ford series - a significant saving.

Not as "pure" allegedly but I wouldn't notice the difference probably and the £52K pa mentioned above would probably get you 4-5 years of Monoposto racing inc car & trailer purchase.

[Pit lane Bob]

I have been competing at CC for the last 2 seasons and know that I would not have achieved class C Championships in 2011 and 12 without the knowledge of the team who ran my car. I have now moved up to class A and have my RF 89 complete car ready to win races for sale, if you are interested.

[PRS RH01]

Originally Posted by dikko

Brilliant Muttley. Can I quote you when I get enquiries?
Maybe it will help keep the grid numbers down....

Dick D. HFF Drivers rep.

Have to add to his observations that we do have a good number of people whose first drives around a track are in a race and there is normally practice a day or two before each one too. As for the rest of it - all too exaggerated and wonderfully true!

Anyone wanting to try HFF series can contact two or three race prep people who hire out. We have a scheme where you don't have to join the series and are allowed one race register-free. Grids are normally full though and registered drivers have priority. Come along at a race meet some time.

Well put Dikko I cant believe he managed to do his first season so cheaply ! Hope you and the boys have a great time at Cadwell this weekend .

Peter
Classic Formula Fords

[PRS RH01]

Originally Posted by itdontgo

Thanks everybody for the replies they've made for very interesting reading. I was hoping to race in the BRSCC NW series at some point this year as I'm a northerner. I've let my license lapse so I presume I have that to go through again but no biggy although I've got some old ones.

I think I'm probably best waiting for a 88/89 car to crop up. Surely someone must hire race cars on an arrive and drive basis in that series?

If you contact Matt Hawkins via the BRSCC he will point you in the right direction as there are several teams who run pre 90 cars in the North West . My own Classic pre 90 Series and Pre 82 championship visits Oulton on the 17th August so your welcome to come play then .

Peter
Classic Formula Ford